Proof Firing

You have heard the terms "Proofed" or "Proof Fired". These terms indicate the item passed a test procedure. This applies to all US GI firearms.

Each Barrel, Bolt, and assembled rifle/carbine/machine gun is fired with a High Pressure Test Round, also known as a Proof Round. The cartridge has much higher pressure than service ammunition. In the postwar period afterwards the barrel or bolt would be "magafluxed, or magnetic particle tested", to check for cracks.

After firing the Bolt, Barrel, Receiver and in the case of an assembled rifle, the stock, are all marked as an indication of passing the high pressure test.

The marks are as follows:

Stock: P in a circle or square
Bolt: PR!CK punch mark and some can have an M either inscribed in electric pencil (M14, M16) or white paint stamped on the body (Carbine) indicating it was magnetic particle tested.
Receiver: PR!CK Punch Mark
Barrel: P for Proofed, M for Magnafluxed or Magnetic Particle Tested

Do not be surprised if occasionally you see a barrel with two P's or a bolt with two punch marks. If a barrel was destined to be a spare part, it was proofed. Later on if it needed for assembly into a rifle, it was proofed again as a rifle. Sometimes two marks will be present, but not always. Occasionally on a Garand bolt you will see two punch marks, as it went through rebuild and both times it was marked.

Here is a picture of the M1 Carbine being proof fired. Notice the protective cradle. The weapons are fired remotely because occasionally one will detonate due to structural failure. The right side shows a stripped barrel being proof fired.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rb_proof-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------

Part II:

As shown above this applies to all US GI weapons. Here are the specifics for the M1 and M14. It is described in detail in some NM publications.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4testfir-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pecmarks-1.jpg

On many message boards the actual designation of the military punch mark is a word that cannot be used. In some areas it is a "bad term", thus the spelling on all message boards is PR!CK PUNCH. The actually military designation will get the word deleted or hidden from view.

Just to dot the i, every M1 barrel was proof fired separately after completion, and the letter P was stamped on it to denote that. When it was assembled to a rifle and the rifle was proof fired, a punch mark was to be put in the loop of the P as evidence. In early production this was done carefully as shown, but as production ramped up, the original P became smaller and the punch was hurriedly stamped only in the general vicinity of it.

Heres a barrel picture I have put up before. I have heard time and time again this was a replacement barrel for the rifle during the war from a unit armorer , not a sent home and re done rifle. It has 2 P's on it.

Stock in photo has the early second firing proof with a non serif P in circle. The cartouche has been obliterated and the stock is for the solid buttplateAttachment 20272Attachment 20273

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bulldog_mack13

Heres a barrel picture I have put up before. I have heard time and time again this was a replacement barrel for the rifle during the war from a unit armorer , not a sent home and re done rifle. It has 2 P's on it.

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It has no maker's name on it (SA) and the date is hand-stamped indicating it's a probable forgery. What's marked under the hand guard on the top of the barrel?

Great info Bill. Clears up a lot of questions for me, Ray

Thanks to Mr. Seijas for the added information. His knowledge is incredible.

How about three P's? My 34760** has on the barrel a punch/more like a small dash, then a "P", an U/I mark then way forward another squarish "P" with punch in the loop with a tiny 3 on top left side of that loop, then A 2 45, then where the barrel taper begins, another small "p'' a punch mark near it . Coloration of metal matches and appears original, not reparked.

Sorry, don't know how to post pics. Will try to take some today and can forward to someone by email if desired.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bulldog_mack13

Heres a barrel picture I have put up before. I have heard time and time again this was a replacement barrel for the rifle during the war from a unit armorer , not a sent home and re done rifle. It has 2 P's on it.

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That is unlike any barrel markings that I have ever seen, ... not sure what ot make of it, other than to say that I don't think it looks real and might be a modern barrel that has had some WWII markings applied. Are there any other markings on it under the handguard?

Oop, just saw Ramboueille's post - I appear to be restating what he is thinking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob seijas

Just to dot the i, every M1 barrel was proof fired separately after completion, and the letter P was stamped on it to denote that. When it was assembled to a rifle and the rifle was proof fired, a punch mark was to be put in the loop of the P as evidence. In early production this was done carefully as shown, but as production ramped up, the original P became smaller and the punch was hurriedly stamped only in the general vicinity of it.

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I Know that NM rifles have a 2nd proof P placed on the barrel when the rifle is proof fired as a NM rifle but way do some late Post war SA rifles also contain 2 "P" proof marks plus a punch mark ?? My 5.8, that I bought at the GCA convention in Anniston, has 2 "P" proofs and the punch and I have seen pictures of others. My rifle appeared almost unused.

I have seen a few GI barrels with 2 P's and several bolts with 2 punches. I even saw one bolt that looked it had like 3, but since it was refinished several times, it was hard to determine for sure.

I was told by 2 "experts" who isnt though... , that the Gov. used thease barrels like this in theater and as unit/company or battailion level replacement barrels that unit lever armourers that would only have a small machine P on them then they would hand stamp the rest. One said thats what he did in the Navy abord ship. That the looked the same.

Thats the only good stories I have on the barrel , I do have more pictures of the barrel with the gun apart I will email you guys, Jay

Certainly no "expert" but I can tell you that a "unit/company or battailion" armory is considered a 2nd Echelon repair shop. While in the Marine Corps I was a Small Arms Repairman (2111) MOS. I worked both as a battalion armorer and also at a rifle range armory, which was considered 3rd Echelon. Barrel replacement could only be performed at a 5th Echelon facility. I don't know about WW2 but I am pretty sure barrel changes were not done at unit or battalion level. In TM9-1275 "Ordnance Maintenance U.S. Rifles, Cal. 30" dated June 1947, tools such as the barrel and receiver wrench are listed as "Tools for fifth eclelon only". I am sure Bill Ricca could give a bit more information.

As far as I know Barrels were never changed at unit level. One could get that information by the -20 technical manuals, which were targeted toward unit armorers. The manuals show what was authorized for use by unit armorers. The early manuals showed "Quantity Authorized" and the later showed the "Quantity Used by Number of Days", or words to that effect (memory). Neither barrels nor bolts were at the unit level.

Although all parts were displayed in the -20 TM, there were no barrels listed as a changed item.

When I was in the 82d the unit armorer just changed the simple parts with replacements. He had no machining capability. I do not remember Battalion Armorers (small arms) back in the 1960's in the 82d. There was a Maintenance Battalion within the Division, which consisted of 4 companies. Each company supported one of the three infantry brigades, with one company very specialized in non infantry equipment. That Battalion was known as Direct Support.

Barrel and bolt changes was authorized at higher levels, like General Support, and Depot levels. By circa 1968, General Support was eliminated and many responsibilities were lowered to Direct Support.

For a unit armorer to change either item, he needed the capability of occasionally cutting head space (with M1 Rifles it rarely happened). If you look at the gages assigned to a unit armorer in the TM's, there were just field test gages. A field test gage measures an item to see if it is serviceable. There were no gages used to check the changing of an item. Changing those parts were done at higher levels.

So then if the barrel is good like im told by the people who have inspected it in person then the barrel would have been changed out at higher up and not at company or battalion level. Im learning something new with the info you guys are giving. Now was the Navy to the same specs. as the Army when it came ot all that? Gene said he was in the Navy and stamped barrels just like this one aboard ship.

On current note:
Being a Company armorer in 2008 we had a civi team come in and change barrels in my arms room on a few M4's but alot of 16A4's were changed up cleaned up by them.

Here is a picture of Remington proof 30-06 loads. Bullets have a red tip and cases are nickel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bulldog_mack13

So then if the barrel is good like im told by the people who have inspected it in person then the barrel would have been changed out at higher up and not at company or battalion level. Im learning something new with the info you guys are giving. Now was the Navy to the same specs. as the Army when it came ot all that? Gene said he was in the Navy and stamped barrels just like this one aboard ship.

On current note:
Being a Company armorer in 2008 we had a civi team come in and change barrels in my arms room on a few M4's but alot of 16A4's were changed up cleaned up by them.

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Things are quite a bit different since the days of the M1 and the M14. As far as the Navy, I am pretty sure that they followed the same weapon repair specs as the Army and Marine Corps. Only place I know of that the Navy did 5th echlon repair would be Navy Rebuild Facility at Crane Indiana but I would guess there are others. Crane would be the Navys equivilent of the Marine Corps Logistics Bases at either Barstow Ca. or Albany Ga. I really don't see the Navy finding the need to change barrels while shipboard. They didn't use M1 rifles aboard ship other than maybe standing watch so the chance of wearing out a barrel seems pretty slim. I can't see M1 Garands having barrels changed and proof fired while aboard a ship. Just makes no sense to me.

The following are from Frankfort Arsenal Small Arms Ammunition Pamphlet 23-1, July 1967. Each round is designated as "Cartridge, Caliber__, Test, High Pressure, M_.

1. Caliber 5.56mm, M197, 70,000 plus/minus 3,000 psi., Ord. Part Number D10533839
2. Caliber .30 Carbine, M18, 47,500 plus/minus 2,500 psi., Ord. Part Number B6176267
3. Caliber .30, M1, 67,500 psi., Ord. Part Number B6016308
4. Caliber 7.62mm NATO, M60, 67,500 plus/minus 2,500 psi., Ord. Part Number C7553703
5. Caliber .45, M1, 22,000 psi., Ord. Part Number C6000502
6. Caliber .50, M1, 65,000 psi., Ord. Part Number C5544097
7. Caliber .50, Spotter, T251, 55,000 psi., Ord. Part Number D10534770

There are special powders used for high pressure test cartridges. The pressure alone is not sufficient. The cartridge pressure must have a certain pressure increase rate (known as pressure curve) which copies the standard cartridges, but with the higher level as specified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bulldog_mack13

So then if the barrel is good like im told by the people who have inspected it in person then the barrel would have been changed out at higher up and not at company or battalion level. Im learning something new with the info you guys are giving. Now was the Navy to the same specs. as the Army when it came ot all that? Gene said he was in the Navy and stamped barrels just like this one aboard ship.

On current note:
Being a Company armorer in 2008 we had a civi team come in and change barrels in my arms room on a few M4's but alot of 16A4's were changed up cleaned up by them.

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Jay,

The "P" mark is for a reason: Tested with a high pressure proof round. This is not done manually but in a firing fixture because of the danger involved. I know of no instances that the Navy has these aboard ships and they would have no reason to during WW2 . They weren't infantry units, they were maritime sailors. These firing fixtures are of the highest echelon equipment. This whole story does not contain any logic whatsoever. Please post any marks found under the rear handguard.

Question, Why would someone go to the trouble of forging a barrel and leave off the most important stamp, the maker ie. SA,WRA, HRA, LMR,IHC. I know all are not WWII but you get my point. And I can't remember if IHC made barrels....oh I digress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveN

Question, Why would someone go to the trouble of forging a barrel and leave off the most important stamp, the maker ie. SA,WRA, HRA, LMR,IHC. I know all are not WWII but you get my point. And I can't remember if IHC made barrels....oh I digress.

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No one ever declared all fakers are Albert Einsteins. Strict Ordnance procedures are and always were to mark the drawing number and heat lot (Except WRA WW2 bbl heat lots). SA did this throughout, so did HRA , Marlin, Buffalo Arms and LMR. The dates weren't handstamped nor was the drawing number and barrel heat lot handstamped except by the fakers. A Photo of this proof lies under the rear handguard for SA WW2 barrels. If they are not there then this would be proof of what some of us already know: The barrel is a fake. Once one becomes dillilusioned and disbelieving, then the excuses become evident that what they have is an "exception." It's not. Forget the "story" that is always is offered or what some "expert" stated, just show the proof which in this case is quite easy to do.

The only IHC barrels are found on WARDORs :)

I agree , nothing adds up. The CMP guys today said it could have been a foreign made barrel from what they see, they said that foreign country or two made barrels for the US , this could have been one that was added like that during WW2. From what the guy I talked with said . Im only going with books I have read and what certain people say.

And I was wondering the same thing, why fake a barrel and then only go half way on markings and add extra things also... if you know enough to add a date(wrong way of doing it) and proof mark but you forget other things like SA .

Très interessant
Merci