Does anyone have an original?
Does anyone have a non-original where they can post a photo of the serial number and provide barrel info?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_2248-1.jpg
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Does anyone have an original?
Does anyone have a non-original where they can post a photo of the serial number and provide barrel info?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_2248-1.jpg
Chris
I have IP 1771634 with an Underwood 1-43 barrel. If you need a pix, all I need to do is find the darn thing. Anything you are looking for?
Mike
BTW, I assume that was a 'put-together' job.
My "white bag" I.P. #1781223 has an Underwood 8-43 barrel with a flaming bomb under the date and a "P" 2 3/8" behind the front sight. I'll get some pics up in the morning if that would help.
.....Frank
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_5373-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_5376-1.jpg
Original top half. RP flip sight the stylized M2 on the OSH the stick man holding the ball in front of lug. Was blued when I got it had it parked when I got it :banghead: has 1-43 UW bbl and IPN front sight with round top 3. Has very small P 6 3/4 down from sight. Has the odd stamping on ring and rear bevel.
Should look like this. Am working on that strange mark on the ring. I know what it is, just gotta reduce the evidence to a pic. Back soon. Mike.Attachment 21088Attachment 21089
The odd stamping on USGICollectors receiver ring is the remains of a German or Austrian marking, kinda like this, someone has tried to remove it. Am trying to identify which marking it was, there were several of them. Silent in the Shadows from CSP will know, blindfolded !. He's hard to find however ! Mike.
Mike,
We had talked about this a long time ago, but it has not been tampered with. The edges of the stampings are still raised up from being stamped. I'm on my phone typing so the thread search is not availible for me to look up original thread and see when it was. I do believe that it is or European lineage on the stampings. Like I said above I messed with it by refinishing it from being blued.
Dave
Thanks. The more info, the better.
Found this link in the 'Similar Threads' feature at the bottom,
Irwin Pedersen Question
HTH,
Charlie-painter777
Chris,
I'm not sure if this is what you want, but here's some pics of the only IP I ever owned....since sold.
It was mostly "correct", but had what I assume was a replacement barrel (Winchester).
John
Is serial 1771588. She has a Rock Ola 1-43 barrel. If you need other info please let me know and I can send a copy of my data sheet to you. Also has a flaming bomb on the receiver heal. Its a very nice piece with the original IP marked stock.
Chris, #1771994 has a 2/43 Rock-Ola barrel. The Club has a data sheet on it. Dave, I take your point, if I can figure out or learn anything helpful I'll be in touch.
That marking on yours sounds like one I have been trying to figure out for about five years, the mysterious backwards Z in exactly the same place !. No luck yet !. Mike.
Thank you John, Ernie, and Mike.
Could it be possible that a certain number of Irwin-Pedersen marked receivers were actually made by Saginaw after the April 1st, 1943 takeover?
I believe that has a high probability. As any uncompleted work by the IP partnership would have been taken over by Saginaw Steering Gear.
Charlie
Chris, If S'G' had 30,000 plus receivers already made by IP in both of the serial number blocks assigned to IP, then why would they need receivers so early on as it took them about three months production to use up the IP receivers they had on hand. Then there is the question of S.G. being able to make enough receivers for themselves as well as the contract for Inland having enough production to send receivers to S'G' about July 1943. Just thinking out loud here. I have IP # 1773553 with a 1-43 Underwood barrel on it if that helps.
When Saginaw took over the Grand Rapids plant on April 1st here are three questions.
1. Regardless of how many I-P made receivers were on hand, would Saginaw have started making their own right away? I think that they would have.
2. If they didn't have the SAGINAW S'G' stamp for the receiver already made up, what would they have stamped on the receiver? I think they would have used the IRWIN-PEDERSEN stamp.
3. Where does it say that there were 30,000 receivers on hand when Saginaw took over? My thoughts are that there was much less.
I'm thinking that Irwin-Pedersen had only used up about 15,000 serial numbers by the time that Saginaw took over. Who knows how much of that was waste? I'm sure that Saginaw assembled or re-worked some carbines with Irwin-Pedersen made receivers.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Chris
Just a quick addition to correct my previous note.
My BTW referred to MY IP. oops
Mike
This is a good thread. I'm thinking like this ..
1. Some, although very few, all I.P part Carbines, can be found. They have no Cartouches,
which seems to fit the evidence that none were ever accepted for military service.
2. I cannot see how S'G' would let such a Carbine pass through their hands without placing
S'G' on it somewhere.
3. On the evidence I have available to me, most I.P Carbines with a mixture of I.P and S'G'
parts do have a Cartouche and were accepted for service.
4. So .... the big question for me is how did some of these all I.P part guns, which were not
accepted, get into circulation ??
If I havn't explained myself well, I'll try again tomorrow ! Mike.Attachment 21188
Mike,
The IP Ernie has is an all IP gun with only an IP in Box and crossed cannons on the stock . He got it from an old man in Montana along with a S'G'. I am good friends with him and have seen the gun and inspected it in person. It is super nice. I will call him and see if he will post some pics.
Dave
Chris, There is no doubt that S'G' went back and used serial numbers off of bad IP receivers but these seem to show up about July/August 1943 judging by the barrel dates I have seen. I am sure that S'G' had new stamps made ASAP including the receiver stamp. The known IP marked receivers span from 1.76 to 1.87 range and if only a third were made that would be over 30K and plus the ones in the 3.2 range that are IP marked. But Doerfner did not have the time to wait for S'G' marked receivers as he was being pressured by the Army to start producing or else. But looking at how many IP stamp receivers have been showing up just at CMP auctions it would seem that the 30K+ to 38K figures in some publications for IP made receivers might be pretty close to the amount made and used by S'G'. But I would ask if S'G' were to get receivers from S.G.,wouldn't they be marked as the Inlands were on the left side with an S.G. stamp?
Does anyone have an Irwin-Pedersen carbine with the serial number between 17778xx and 17905xx? This is the serial number range of the receivers which I suspect were made by Saginaw at Grand Rapids.
Bruce, I suspect the first 15,000 serial numbers were used by Irwin-Pedersen. Who knows how many receivers successfully made it through heat treatment, inspections, etc. and were used in production. there are plenty of examples of S'G' marked receivers with serial numbers in this range. Those were undoubtedly re-used serial numbers.
The second, roughly 15,000 serial numbers with the Irwin-Pedersen name stamped on the receiver may have been actually produced by Saginaw after the takeover.
I've been comparing the picture of the IP receiver posted by Mikey51 with my S'G' receiver S/N 1829338. The barrel date on my S'G' is 8-43. Below is a crude composite picture of the IP vs the S'G'. I don't know if this is significant, but to me there are obvious differences in the two - mainly the machining marks look different on the S'G'. For some reason the shape at the rear of the bolt opening appears different too, but maybe it's because the angles of the pictures are not the same. Were these receivers supposed to be made on the same machinery, or did SG bring in new machines when they took over? - Bob
Chris,
I had two. Gave one to my cousin, a 1.77 it had a 6-43 barrel. I kept the other 1.78 but it has a 12-43 barrel that I alway questioned as too late.
One reason is I also have an S'G' 1.86 with a 9-43 barrel.
Don't know if that is any help or not.
Jim
Chris, I misread something you had posted earlier and that is my bad. Funny as to how most of the IP serial numbers listed here are in the range of 1.771 to 1.778.
CMP auction rifle.
Also came with an S'G' bolt with an IP firing pin. A couple other IP parts and the rest of "mixed manufacturers" as they say.
Has a 3-43 dated Rock-Ola barrel.
Can't really tell if the bolt was original to the rifle. I guess some carbines came to CMP with bolts attached while the majority did not.
Attachment 21207Attachment 21206Attachment 21205
Ray
Ray, Thanks. Is there an M2 or M4 stamped on the right side of the op spring housing near the rear? I can't read what it says.
There is an M2 marking there. I thought it was a 12 at first. I'm reading and re-reading War Baby trying to figure out the IP, SG, S'G' story!
The S'G' slide also has a letter J on the side.
Ray
Attachment 21215Attachment 21214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcieri
FWIW Ray, my 1.87 mil S'G' has the same sideways J in the same location as yours
Are they M's or N's ?Attachment 21216
I'm not sure what the stamping stands for. I have studied it under fairly high magnification and can't make out the other leg if it is an M. It was either stamped too far back on the radius if stamping occurred after milling or was stamped before the radius was finalized. Could have worn down in use also I suppose.
Ray
Another view with better lighting.
Ray
Attachment 21223
The M2 was most likely stamped before the machining of the receiver was complete.
Mike,
Your IP sure does look like a N2.
The spacing does not look right for a M
Dave
Take another look. It appears that he "M" and "2" were separate stamps. If you study several of them, you will notice that they are not stamped evenly. It appears that the "M" in question, is actually stamped upside down.
Chris,
If you look at it and think the M is upside down, the spacing does then work out and I agree with you it probably is a M. I guess your job with the CC and your personal experience and collection would give you a leg up on most of us in the numbers of IP's handled!!!! I've only had my hands on a few, and seen what's on the web. Thanks for pointing that out about the stampings.
Dave
Actually, I haven't studied I-P much. Just getting up to speed now. Here is a picture of the marking on 1773393. Notice that the "M" does not have serifs. Also, another, partial "M" appears to be stamped sideways over the "2".
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC_2321a-1.jpg
I pulled mine out 1.776 it has a 12-42 Rock-Ola barrel. I didn't break it down but a did notice a crisp flaming bomb with 5 punch marks right above wear these M2 stamps are located
Curt,
Looks like yours, Newscotlander's, and Arceiri's all have that. I'm on vacation, so my carbine is 4,000 miles away right now to check mine.
Chris,
Thanks for the info on yours. Interesting on the M stamp. I tried to get a pic of the stick figure, but I was in a hurry to leave for vacation when I was taking the pics. Pretty sure the CCNL is #284 for FP's info on the figure. Let me know if you need anything else info wise. A pic of my M2 stamp is in this thread.
What is this ?
Dave
Umm.....
My flaming bomb is upside down! What's with THAT. Must have been struck late on a Friday afternoon or early Monday morning. Actually, I suppose the manufacturers were working 24-7during the war, although I have not seen anything in print to indicate that.
Ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
I came back to this Great old post and have to wonder...
IF S'G' would have got receivers from Saginaw.
Wouldn't these Saginaw receivers of had the WIDE REAR LOCKING TANG?
Like the earlier Saginaw to Inland and later Saginaw to S'G' receivers?
And like Bruce noted the SG Stamp on the lower left side of the receiver?
Thx,
Charlie-painter777
Does anyone know the meaning of the M2 marking on these IP receivers
?
Also regarding Charlie's question about SG receiver supply: I've never had an SG, so I can't compare this issue, so if someone knows, does the SG have this 'interruption' or bump up at the rear sight like the IP? I call it an interruption because if you drag a line from front to back, the bump up breaks the line.
Here's a picture of an S'G' posted by Hercules Powder back in May. - Bob
tenOC,Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
I have SG 3,465,xxx and S'G' 1,823,xxx that both have this bump you've noted.
I also see that the SG measures 9/16" in length from the rear to the slide cut out, having a C cut notch.
The S'G' measures 1/4", having a squared off/ramped cut. Like the IP's shown in this thread.
BTW,
I just pulled these two from storage..... So they are greasy.
FWIW,
Charlie-painter777
SG 3,465,xxx:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09130-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09127-1.jpg
S'G' 1,823,xxx:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09128-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09125-1.jpg
Thanks, guys, but I'm talking about the S.G., like Charlie's. How are others milled? More or less like his?
late entry here
IP all orig serial 32162xx
barrel underwood 3-43
NO import marks never thru a rebuild (still has push safty and rear flip sight) all parts are IP except the S'G' hammer
this one came out of SE asia somewhere about 10-15 years ago