Are there any major concerns for loading a winchester M1917. I am looking for ideas for developping good practice loads
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Are there any major concerns for loading a winchester M1917. I am looking for ideas for developping good practice loads
Shouldn't be as long as the rifle is mechanically sound. Take it by a gunsmith and have it looked at and have the head space checked if you are unsure.
The actions I have heard were used to make magnum caliber conversions with (.375H&H size).
I have a Win. M1917 that I got back in 1995 to moose hunt with. I cleaned the cosmoline off, scrubed the bore and went shooting.
My rifle does not like 150 gr. bullets. It will shoot 180 gr. better but nothing to brag about. 220 gr. Federals I can brag about:super:. MOA at 100 paces, one big hole in a 12 oz. pop can.
I started reloading last year for .303, .308 and .223 and haven't got dies yet for 06, but I will.
I read some where that the M1917 uses the same twist that was developed for the "first".30 cal govt. round that used a 220 grain bullet.
When I start reloading for 30-06 I will work up loads for the 200 and 220 grain bullets. I have IMR4350 and 4064 and maybe I'll try Varget too.
Be Safe
The M1917 is an ideal rifle for the heaviest .30-'06 loadings. The 1"-in-10" twist rate was chosen early on to accomodate the 220 grain bullets of the .30 U.S.Army (.30-40 Krag) and .30-'03 cartridges and was retained on all government furnished equipment even after the 150 grain spitzer bullet was adopted for the .30-'06 cartridge. The five-groove, left hand twist of the Pattern 14 Enfield rifle was retained when the existing tooling was modified to produce the M1917150 grain bullets are "over-stabilized" at 1"-in-10" and do better with a slower twist rate. The 1"-in-12" twist of the more familiar .30 WCF (.30-30 with either 150 or 170 grain bullet weights) was adopted for the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by moose fat
Between the World Wars surplus M1917s were popular choices for sporterizing. Many with bad bores were re-bored and rifled to .358" for the wild-cat .35 Whelan, without other modification. I had one of these that was very accurate.
Try the following loads:
150 grs FMJ FB,VV 50,1 grs N140. COL?, 830 m/s? source: internet M2 standard?
· 168 grs Privi HP BT, VV 48 grs N140. COL? , 800 m/s source: internet
· 168 grs Privi HP BT, VV 49 grs N150. COL? , 800 m/s source: internet
· 167 grs Scenar, VV 49,4 grs N140. COL 84 mm source: VV reloading guide 2004
· 167 grs Scenar, VV 47 grs N140. COL 83,8 mm source: Visier Special, German Gun mag
· 167 grs Scenar, VV 50 grs N150. COL 83,8 mm source Visier Special, German Gun mag
· 168 grs Matchking, VV 47.5 grs N140. COL 83 mm source: Visier Special, German Gun mag
· 185 grs D46, VV 43 grs N140, COL 84,5 mm source: Visier Special, German Gun mag
. 146grs FMJ, VV 52grs N140, COL? source: US nationalmatch forum
. 146grs FMJ, VV 50grs N135, COL? source: US nationalmatch forum
for MY M1917 and M1 I found these combinations to be the most accurate:
. 150 grs Sierra ProHunter flatbase, VV 49.5grs N140 COL 83.0mm, Vel? (M1 garand)
. 147 grs FMJ (NATO surplus), VV 49.5 grs N140 COL appr 82.6mm (M1 garand)
. 167 grs lapua Scenar (GB 422), VV47.4 grs N140 COL 84.4mm VEL 786m/s (M1 garand)
. 165 grs Sierra GameKing BT, VV 49.8grs N150 COL 85.2mm Vel 830m/s (M1917)
. 167grs lapua Scenar (GB 422), VV 49.6 grs N150 COL 84.6mm Vel 820m/s (M1917)
Mine shoots well in our local Milshoots with 150 gr Hornadys over 50.0 grs of Varget.
Well I don't know if it will help but if you have one of the original barrels on the rifle (Eddystone, Remington or Winchester) its a five groove, 1 in 10 LEFT hand twist.
WWII replacement barrels varied, these were made by Johnson Automatics (JA), High Standard (HS) and Rock Island (RIA, via Remington and Savage). The JA barrels were four groove and the bulk were two groove right hand twist. HS barrels were four groove right hand twist and the RIA barrels I dont have a clue (they are VERY rare).
The original 30-06 spec was actually 30-03, developed for the M1903 rifle and it used a 220 grain projectile on top of 45 grain powder load. I am pretty sure the twist was still a 1 in 10 but a right hand twist. From what I have heard from several shooter that have used 220 grain bullets is that this rifle seems to really like them, I havent loaded for that size bullet yet so that is just what I have heard from other shooters.
Dan
I use 51 grains of Win 748 and a 146 FMJ ex milsurp projectile.
This works really well for me. The barrel is dated 38 with the flambing bomb sign, so I guess it was refurbed at some stage.
It is an ex UK rifle and still has its red painted band from home guard use in WW2.
I started off with the load from "visier" quoted above by mk23 (I shoot in the BDMP with the guy wh provided those loads).
I had to shorten the OAL because the 83.8 mm put the bullet right up on the lands in my Eddy. I set the depth to be about 20 thou off the lands and tested various charges of N140. No crimp. Look up Optimum Charge Weight and Optimum Barrel Time for an understanding of what is going on, and why and how to test various charge weights.
Bullet: Lapua Scenar Silver Jacket (i.e. the moly-coated version) 167 gn.
Case: GECO 30-06, once-fired in this rifle. Selected by weight to a spread of +/- 1 gn about the 181 gn average value of the batch I had. The average may vary a little from one factory batch to another, but the spread within a batch seems to be very low indeed.
Primer: CCI 200 large rifle
Powder: charges from 46 to 51 gns (max permitted load in Vihtavuori reloader manual is 51.1 gn).
The grouping results were plotted on graph paper. Two curves: one with the group size of all 8 shots per group. Then, allowing for 1 flyer per group, a curve of the 7 shots left after eliminating the worst shot in each group. Result: two double-humped curves - a valley between two peaks.
It is not easy to find the best, but easy to see the worst!
At 46 and 49 gn the 8-groups were twice as large as the groups at 47(good)-48 gn (better). For the best-7-shot groups (i.e. without the worst shot) 45 and 49 gn were MORE than twice as large as the groups with 48 gn. 50 gn was even a touch better, but noticeably harde on the shoulder.
Conclusions: for this rifle, with the load parameters described above, the best load lies around 47.5 gn N140, but is non-critical in this range. Below 47 or above 48 slight variations will produce increasingly larger spreads, and 46 or 49 gn regions are to be avoided.
Of course, this could be repeated with varying seating depths etc. But life is too short and I have other things to do - like shooting other rifles! So, under the motto "No pain no gain" I took the 50 gn load (which must be measured very carefully,as it is very close to the limit) and came 3rd in the BDMP Hessen Championship at 100 meters - 40 places up on the year before! For everyday use, the 47.5 gn is an excellent non-critical first approximation, but first check on the apppropriate seating depth for YOUR rifle!
Patrick
The original WWI 30-06 ammunition was a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps. Most of the commercial (and some military) FMJ open base/hollow base bullets aren't very accurate. Just skipping those and using soft point or JHP hunting or match bullets will increase accuracy if the rifle is accurate.
Varget measures fairly well. 48.0 grains with a 155 grain match bullet is very accurate.
Before that load I got good results with 47.0 grains of IMR-4895 with the same 155 grain bullet and most 150 grain bullets.
The factory Hornady match load is 47.3 grains of Varget with a 168 grain A-max bullet loaded to a COL of 3.315".
The old Winchester 150 grain bullet load has 48.0 grains of W-748.
If you like ball powders like W-748, 47.0 grains of W-748 works well with a 168 grain bullet.
I have a Remington rifle fitted with an RIA barrel - It is four groove RH twist appears to be 1 in ten. quite accurate. I bought the barrel on Epay two years ago for $85.00. It was fun getting it fitted.
The 1917 can do very well with cast bullets and they can be an economical source for practice, target and effective hunting ammunition. The 06 can be loaded with anything weighing between 110 and 220 grains and there are a lot of bullet choices in the cast world to work with. Whichever weight one chooses of course has some relation to what you want to do with the ammo. There is one consideration however and although it is not a strictly limiting factor, it is worthwhile to be aware of it. Col Harrison, writing for the NRA loading handbook did a thorough investigation on the performance of 30 cal cast bullets. One of the parameters that he established is that 1917 barrels with 5 groove rifling (which way the twist goes is not important) has lands that take up a major portion of the circumference of the bore. As such the rifling requires a bullet with a shorter "body" (less than half the length of the bullet) that will ride in the grooves and a longer "nose"...which will ride on tops of the lands and be guided by them. The ideal bullet design (no pun intended) was 311334 (not any longer in production) Lyman still makes 311332 a close copy. Saeco's 301 version of the old RG-4 is also an excellent choice. RCBS and Lee also make designs of various weights that will work well too. Other molds such as Lyman 311291,311041 and 311284 as well as 311299 and 314299(if a larger diameter bullet is needed) have been reported to shoot good groups. There is some variance in the measurements of 1917 bores so it is a good idea to slug your bore if possible to see exactly what internal dimensions you are dealing with before choosing a mold, or making adjustments to it later if necessary. Depending on BHN bullet hardness; the use of Lino or water quenching etc. velocities of up to 2200-2300 are easily attainable and will afford good target ot hunting capability. With the current trend in ammo prices it makes getting into casting an interesting venture. The 1917 can be an accurate rifle if you get into making it one. JC
I discovered with a chamber cast that my Eddy M1917 (1918 date 5-groove barrel) has almost no "throat" the lands start right at the edge of the case mouth. Cast have to be under 0.311" or I have problems. I usually shoot 175 grain Sierra MK's for jacketed and it is pretty accurate with these. I did shoot some HXP surplus at a JC Garand match and they did fine.
Wineman