IBM Bavarian small parts questions

I recently acquired a 3.85 m Bavarian/Austrian IBM carbine and I'm puzzled about some of the parts in it.
First of all, I went to the Bavarian website link posted in the sticky here to educate myself as much as possible. My IBM apparently was once fielded by the Bavaria Rural police judging from the faint lettering to that effect on the left receiver rail and last 4 digits of the serial # etched on the bolt, as well as stamped on the op slide, rear lug of the trigger housing and inside the sling well.
The Austrian codes are stamped on the receiver heel bevel, bottom of the trigger housing and sling well. The carbine appears to have been updated by either the Bavarians or Austrians to type II rear sight and flip safety. Other than that, everything else is circa mid-WWII: 11-43 IBM barrel with SI B marked front sight, type 1 barrel band with KV-B marked swivel, BE-B trigger housing with ty III AM B marked hammer and type 1 BOB marked sear, JL-B type III stock, type III AOB op slide. Given the matching Bavarian markings on the major parts and observing the patina and wear patterns on the internal parts when I stripped it down to fill out a data sheet, it seems to me that this has been in this configuration, except for the safety and rear sight, since the end of WWII. Now for the 4 parts that have me scratching my head: it has an NPM ty 2 bolt, marked N 14 on the left lug. Inside is a ty. 1 OB B IBM firing pin and ty. III W-B marked extractor. Could the NPM bolt be original, given that it had IBM internals? I can't find any mention in War Baby! of NPM bolts being transferred to IBM, though. It has an LT-Q trigger as well, and again, no mention of Quality Hardware transferring triggers to IBM. Same with the E.I. marked ty. III mag catch, although since Eaton Pond made mag catches for both Inland and IBM, could the possibility exist that IBM could have had some mixed in with the EP-B marked mag catches? Finally, nearly in-the-white op spring guide rod tip is pointed, but I thought I saw somewhere that all WWII issue op spring guide rod tips were of the flat variety? It sure looks like all those parts have been together for 65+ years, so any thoughts on whether these non-IBM parts could have been "as issued" by IBM would be appreciated.

If the gun came from the CMP,it was received without the bolt. The CMP armourers headspaced the rifle with a bolt that would headspace in the carbine without preference to manufacturer. As far as the upgraded parts,it could have done at a maintenance company before the end of the war or before it was loaned to the Bavarian Rural Police or the Austrians.

Loren

Thanks for your input, Loren. I wasn't told my IBM was a CMP carbine nor did I receive any CMP paperwork with it. Would CMP have etched the last 4 digits of the serial # on the bolt if they installed one? It's very similar to etching I've seen pix of on Bavarian M1carbines.com, it looks like it's been at home in that IBM for a long, long time. Also, would CMP have taken the time to intentionally put an IBM extractor and type 1 firing pin? BTW, bolt and internals are all blued.
It's a nice example of a Bavarian, no purple trigger group or blued metal and the numbers all match the s/n. I'm very happy with it and intend to submit a data sheet in as-received condition.

Missed the serial number on top of the bolt. It too could have been done at a maintenance company during the war or before the rifle was loaned out. Sorry for missing the serial number on top of the bolt again.

Loren

Loren[/QUOTE]

I dont think that is a true statement. I ordered 3 Bavarians from the CMP last year. Each came with a Bolt that was numbered to match the gun. This wasnt done by CMP. On two of guns, all the major componets were stamped with the last four digits of the SN and one had some mixed up numbered parts.
For the OPs question, keep in mind that 4.3 million parts were traded between the contactors, WB doesnt even come close to having that many listed. It might be possible that your bolt is original, but it would only be speculation. Your carbine sounds like a nice rifle. The Bavarians are pretty cool variations that should be preserved for what they are. I fear lots of them are going to be parted out for their valuable early parts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lbelflowers

If the gun came from the CMP,it was received without the bolt. The CMP armourers headspaced the rifle with a bolt that would headspace in the carbine without preference to manufacturer.

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---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------

It also seems like the Germans were pretty careful about keeping the parts of a carbine together. The ones I have are pretty correct, except the safeties and mag catches-just like yours.

The Austrian carbines were received by CMP with the bolts installed. The Italian returns did not have bolts installed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mpd1978[/QUOTE

I dont think that is a true statement. I ordered 3 Bavarians from the CMP last year. Each came with a Bolt that was numbered to match the gun. This wasnt done by CMP. On two of guns, all the major components were stamped with the last four digits of the SN and one had some mixed up numbered parts.
For the OPs question, keep in mind that 4.3 million parts were traded between the contractors, WB doesn't even come close to having that many listed. It might be possible that your bolt is original, but it would only be speculation. Your carbine sounds like a nice rifle. The Bavarians are pretty cool variations that should be preserved for what they are. I fear lots of them are going to be parted out for their valuable early parts.
It also seems like the Germans were pretty careful about keeping the parts of a carbine together. The ones I have are pretty correct, except the safeties and mag catches-just like yours.

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My thought was that if the US military had upgraded the safety they would have also installed a newer type mag catch. And why would they take the time to install a different trigger (LT-Q) yet ignore the type 1 sear that had to be removed to swap the trigger? Same with the bolt group, for even if IBM internals had been installed by coincidence the USGI armorer would have at least taken a few minutes to modify the ty. 1 firing pin to ty. 3. My impression is that the U.S. occupation authorities gave the M1 Carbines to Bavaria along with the two most important and straightforward to install parts; late rear sights and flip safety. I think Uncle Sam wanted to save the newer type parts on hand to upgrade the carbines they were going to keep in US inventory.
Any guesses about why the supposedly postwar pointed-tip op spring guide rod rather than the WWII issue flat tip type? I have never heard much about these guide rods getting worn out and failing, so why replace it? It could be the difference in the tip was more of a cost saving measure that a mechanical improvement but maybe the miniscule increase in overall length gained by the tiny point was enough to keep the guide from jumping out of the recess in the op slide under rapid fire? I haven't really seen any info on these guide rods and maybe I read it wrong that the pointed tip variety were postwar.
I can't agree more about the significance of the Bavarian/Austrian returns, they offer the M1 carbine collecting community another treasure trove of information relative to originality of as-issued carbines. I'm sure many that CMP sold in recent years were parted out but mine will never be!

Hi guys

Before assuming it was brought back by the Army and sold by CMP, it would help to know the Austrian markings on the bottom of the trigger housing.

In 1994 INTRAC of Knoxville, TN imported over 7000 M1 Carbines from Austria. Some of these had been used by Bavaria or other agencies in Germany.

Carbines imported by INTRAC were from several Austrian agencies. The Gendarmerie carbines, which yours is, were from the Austrian States of Lower Austria and Salzburg. The markings would be:

LGKNO
LGKSb

The import mark is sometimes hard to spot. It was etched on the bottom of the barrel behind the rear sight:

INTRAC
KNOX, TN

CMP received about 6700 carbines from Austria in late 2008 and began selling them about October 2009. Gendarmerie States & Markings:

LGKK (Carinthia)
LGKOO (Upper Austria)
LGKSt (Steiermark)
LGKT (Tirol)
LGKV (Vorarlberg)

Regarding the the marking on the receiver bevel, The only gendarmerie state I've seen mark the bevel was Carinthia. They repeated the markings they placed on the bottom of the trigger housing, LGKK over their 4 digit inventory number.

If the bevel is other than LGKK I'd be interested in learning what the marking is. Bavaria obtained carbines from two other German States, who sometimes put markings on the bevel.

Try not to get too focused on which parts made by who were put there by whom. Remember, these carbines were used by American troops during WWII, turned over to Ordnance as troops headed home, and stored in a Depot in Europe until provided to the Germans. Some of the carbines that stayed in Europe went thru and inspect/rebuild process at FN in 1945. U.S. Ordnance may have done an inspection at the Depot or Field level. Possibly during the war and after the war.

I have a fairly good idea of which German agency and Austrian agency did what with their carbines as far as parts upgrades. Keeping in mind never say never, never say always.

Jim
BavarianM1Carbines.com
M1CarbinesInc.com

I appreciate your response, Jim. And I didn't realize that I forgot to specifically give the LGK K marking info in my OP. As I said, I don't know if this were a CMP carbine, but there's no import mark anywhere that I can find.
I was planning on shooting you an e mail through your website to see if you were interested in a data sheet or pix of the markings.
Thanks for your great website, I think the M1 carbine collecting community has benefited greatly from both CMP making them available and your efforts in getting the word out on these interesting pieces of our history.

Maniac

PS - Given the originality of many Bavarian/Austrian carbines, it would be great if owners would send data info to the Carbine Club for addition to their knowledge base, they really would welcome it.

Get Carbine Club newsletters 351-358 and you will find Jim has written a very comprehensive guide to Bavarian M1 carbines.

Loren

If it's an LGKK then it was sold by CMP.

What CMP received was actually most of the 2nd shipment INTRAC tried to import and had blocked by Clinton in the mid 1990's. The remainder of the second batch was bought by Euroarms in Italy.

I started working on reconstructing the history of these carbines back about 2005. I had bought one of the INTRAC imports, knowing less than nothing about carbines. First time shooting it, the bolt cracked. Seeking a replacement got me started on carbines. Seeing the LGKNO, with the O having an umlat, got my curiosity going on what the heck was that German letter doing on an American carbine. The rest is history.

CMP was a watershed for my research. I'd been struggling to find unaltered examples for a number of years when CMP got the boatload in.

I still have a ways to go, tho. Plus a display.

Also working on the history of the commercial carbines, shared at M1CarbinesInc.com . Like them or not, there are a lot of owners with an interest. And most folks are unaware there have been close to a million commercial carbines manufactured, most of them sold to folks in the USA.

I've also broke down and added 8 pages to my Bavarian website on the GI carbines. Eventually they will get their own website. You can go straight to them at The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines

Jim