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A question for the British contingent I suspect, but when did Sterling SMG's gain their wrinkle finish paint? was it applied in the factory, or a base refurbishment feature - and if so when did it become a feature?
Thanks in advance of some quality posts!
Sterling SMG's were painted with the wrinkle finish during new production when going for commercial or export sales. British military variants were painted with smooth Suncorite 259 paint at the factory and during subsequent FTR programs.
Dead right Brian. Additionally, the crackle paint was painted over the phosphate finish. It was the same paint, made by TRIMITE, that was used on MGB dashboards if you're interested
I've experimented here doing Sterling refinishing for customers using a crinkle finish paint I get from a company called Easton. I apply it over fresh manganese phosphate and it's very tough once cured out and has the same fine crinkle like the originals.
We had a little company locally who used to refurbish MGB dashboards. They did a superb job too. Maybe you ought to do them too Brian!
Thanks, so British service issue weapons should always have a smooth not a wrinkled finish, or in the best tradition of the MoD did batches get mixed? I'm pretty sure that in 1986 when I used one at the range in Gibraltar it had a wrinkle finish, but time has a habit of interfering with reality!
Our Norfolk CCF had five mint crackle black Sterlings, at least between 1966 - 70. Supposedly for demonstration purposes only, but after the Royal Norfolks were disbanded (or merged ?) a very useful quantity of 9mm appeared in our stores. made our summer camp near Folkstone more fun.
|The UK Military spec for the Fazakerley and Sterling SMG's specified the bog standard UK MoD finish. This included the L34 silenced guns too which put the Sterling company out a bit because when the UK MoD ordered xxx (restricted quantity), they couldn't be supplied from stock because the stocks were all crackle finish. So they had to do a new run, just for the UK MoD.
As a matter of interest, the UK MoD found themselves sitting on a large quantity of commercial crackle finish end caps and butts. In order to utilise these within the spares supply system, special relaxation was sought - and approved. But there was no relaxation granted for a large quantity of commercial crackle finish casings. As a result, they were scrapped although some were bought back by Sterling. So, in theory, the owner of an ex UK Military gun could have a crackle finish butt and/or end cap. But that's all............. Not plain finish, Not UK Military
There's a good, cheap little book about the Sterling SMG that you might enjoy reading Stan. Available from Collector Grade I seem to remember
Were the sterlings built for the Indian army (and never shipped) the crinkle finish or the plain finish? Did they end up in the British system as either parts or as whole guns?
Ah, yes....... Good question Stencollector. The cancelled Indian order were the source of the crackle finished parts. The UK Military stripped them down as spares but scrapped the casings as they didn't comply with our spec.
India didn't worry too much that we cancelled their lucrative order. They simply negotiated a licensing agreement with Sterling and built their own. And never came back to us for small arms. What a way to treat a previously friendly government.
Incidentally, it wasn't just the Sterlings that were blocked but a similar quantity of 7.62mm No4's too (.....the origins of the L8 programme and source of the L8 extractors and magazines used in the subsequent L42's - hence the 1965 dates)
I goofed on the company here in the USA that has the good quality crackle paint. It's Eastwood not Easton for all you do-it-yourselfers out there.
Peter,Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Would Trimite J136 (spec below) be about the same product as the original Sterling finish? Seems to be quite popular with speaker cabinet makers at the moment.
http://www.trimite.com/products/?air...ture-black&pdf
Do you happen to know if it was spray applied and baked or just air dried at the factory?
I am restoring some Police Carbines and would love to match the factory coating as much as possible.
Thank you,
Andrew
PS - I cherish my copy of GoD
I can't answer that Lima as we never used the crackle finish on our Sterling guns. But a quick email to Trimite would tell you. I'm pretty sure that the Sterling finish was an oven bake, as was the MG works dashboard finish
VHT Wrinkle Plus Black High Temp Spray Paint is very close to the original paint,,, if you follow the instructions exactly.
I like TIGER Drylac black wrinkle powder coat. It's much more durable than paint. See pic below.
I don't mean to revive a dead thread but have a bit to add to the story I forgot to post earlier.
I contacted the Trimite company to see if they could confirm if the current Trimite black crackle product (J136) is the same as what was used on Sterling commercial guns back in the day and if it could be used over fresh parkerizing.
Response from a friendly Trimite Internal Sales Manager:
"Unfortunately, J136 was not the product used for the applications described as it is for woodfinishing only, the products used were S70 Stoving Crackle finishes which were discontinued several years ago and we do not have raw materials to re-make, sorry I can't be more helpful."
The best finish I have seen is that shown on Vincents photo above. It appears to be just a tiny bit smoother than the original but pretty damn good. Or just get the gun casing beadblasted and phosphated (BDL in SC can do this) and get a local MGB restorer to crackle paint it afterwards. I'm sure that'll be just as durable after it's been in the oven
I am afraid being "restricted" firearms in Canada (unlike the US), it would not be so easy have an outside shop work on my Mk4 Police Carbines for a proper MG powder coat. I have facilities for proper bead blasting and parkerizing at home which I have completed. As much as it pains me as a Sterling fan wanting to honor the original tradition, I think it best to finish mine with L2A3 type paint over the parkerizing. Results from a can can be inconsistient and I would hate to have to start over.
Attached is a picture of the casings after parkerizing. There is a curious thing in that all of the guns had identical discoloration striping on the end sof the mag well. My guess is that the induction brazing at the factory had the mag well heated to different temps at each end and the manganese adheres to the harder or softer metal differently showing different shades of gray. Another curious thing about these guns is that while they have <#200 serial numbers, some came with Mk III single shot marked trigger packs and features like early fixed front sights and early mag release buttons.
Attachment 25604
You will find that parkerizing will show different colours with different heat tratments. Yes the brazing changes things. I think it adds to the character because it's part of the story. Others think it's plain unattractive. Your paint finish will make that go away of course. By the way, nice guns. Wish one was mine.
I would think that being early Mk4 (L2A3 type) single shot Police Carbine guns Sterling were using up the last of their Mk3 (L2A2 type) trigger mechanism assemblies. In fact, the FIRST Police Carbines were based on late Mk3 (L2A2) guns The later and 'naughty' Mk4 rock and roll trigger mechs are a direct fit. But you must promise to replace the full auto inner change lever with the existing neutered inner from your existing trigger mechs.
The same applies to the magazine catches buttons and adjustable foresights. I expect these are plentiful via the US and in parts kits
Yes already have that covered, original semi change levers are hard to find, I do have one new original one in an original NIW MK6 trigger pack i was lucky to find. Using that as a pattern, I machined a new single shot change lever from scratch. It works just fine but I realized that modifying the FA ones is slightly easier. A bit metal in the right place held with high temp silver solder brazing does the job and then some quick parkerizing. Attached are pics of a few I modified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
After playing around with some various trigger frames, the one thing that I did not expect is that the triggers geometry is different (not just the finger shape) between the MkIII and MKIV triggers. The MkIV trigger does not want to sit nicely in a MkIII trigger frame with the sear cradle installed.
St. Martins Plain?Quote:
Originally Posted by bouletbill
As to the CCF. When I was at school, I went on a Cadet Armourers course. On the course it was drummed into us that we should never call "The SMG, L2A3" a Sterling. I found out years later that the Government was trying to avoid paying Sterling any Royalties for the "Sterlings" produced at the Royal Ordnance Factory. So no change there then! (The British Government has form for this.)
In later years, SMG and Sterling were used interchangeably and indiscriminately by us all.
Hi Beerhunter, we were camped at Shorncliffe, late 60's, is that near ?
I was not an armourer at that time but we all had fun blasting off a load of unofficial 9mm at Hythe ranges with our nice new 'Sterlings' which were not known by any other name (by us) and were all crinkle finish with full auto selectors..... Happy days.
Did Brit-Gov pay Royalties to Brno for our LMG or was it 'modified' enough to get them off the hook, like the Webley/Enfield pistol ?
Like I say, all Briitish military contract L2A3 guns were plain non crackle satin paint
And yes, Britain paid royalties on EVERY Bren they made PLUS every Bren made in Canada and Australia plus the tripods. Yep, even throughout the war too! We even paid for every change in spec too.
They simply flatly refused to pay royalties to Webley and tried the same 'sue-us-if-you-dare ploy with the Fazakerley UF made Sterlings. They did - and won!
Wot ??? do you mean we were paying royalties to Nazi occupied Brno ?. . . . Later to be Russian occupied Brno.
I remember our Sterlings intimately. I can't explain the discrepancy but I do know they were not supposed to be used.
During the war, we paid the Bren royalties into a UK bank. As did Canada (who built them under licence to us because Inglis was a private manufacturing agency) and as did Australia who DID build them, under the same agreed licence at a Govt. Ordnance factory.
Once the war was going hammer and tongs, we did vary production without a second thought and the only thing that was a sticking block that I can uncover, was the use of a UK BA thread for the Mk2 folded foresight protector
Incredibly, Singer were STILL making and exporting sewing machines to Nazi Germany, via neutral Spain (although some say it was Portugal.....) until early 1941