Enfield No. 4 sniper in Vietnam

I noticed an interesting photo recently in a book I own called Special Forces at War, Illustrated History, Southeast Asia 1957-1975, By Shelby L. Stanton. On page 65 it shows a photo of Major David E. Shepherd Jr. holding an "Enfield Mark IV sniper rifle" while accompanying a Special Forces led "Ruff-Puff" patrol near Ben Luc in An Long Province 1964.
The rest of the men in the photo have U.S. M-1 or M-2 carbines.
Major Shepherd is listed as" a U.S. Operations Mission provincial representative and former commander of the Special Forces Training Group at Fort Bragg."
In the photo it looks like a scoped No.4T. It's hard to make out, but it looks like the more rounded .303 magazine on the rifle rather than the squared off 7.62 version.
It would be interesting to learn more of it's history in that war and how he came to be carrying it on patrol. Perhaps it came the route of the Australians in Vietnam as the book states a close relationship with them and U.S. Army Special Forces in that conflict.

UK left behind large quantities of arms - especially Brens, No4s and Stens - in Indo-China after they occupied the area at the end of WW2. Quite possibly specialist weapons such as 4(T)s were still sitting around in South Vietnamese depots in the 60s. Perhaps 4(T)s were procured off the British, along with the numbers of Sten MkIIS that were used by US agencies.

It is amazing the variety of arms that were employed in SE Asia. French, Japanese, British, Swedish K's, U.S., as well as all the later Sino-Soviet and other Warsaw Pact countries models!

Often reposted, but this photo has to take the "Enfields in Vietnam" prize........:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...67893087-1.jpg

Wow! Wonder what the final resting place for that old V turned out to be. Inglorious end for an aristocratic rifle.

Would that ever be a nice vet bringback!

Interesting how the bolt handle appears to be bent forward. Comrade VC has not studied the sight settings apparently. But yes, where the H did they get that? And in such good nick to judge by the woodwork.

It doesn't look to me like it's actually got a back sight. The VC had thousands of LB and Savage No4's and Inglis Brens. In 1969 I had a 1963 FTR'd Inglis No1 Mk1 chinese marked Browning from them whose route to them was unknown. By 1969 it was unusual to see anything but Soviet/Chinese weaponry.

As a matter of interest, and it made the papers at the time, but the biggest weapon captured up until 1968 was a British made MOBAT anti - tank gun

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Interesting how the bolt handle appears to be bent forward. Comrade VC has not studied the sight settings apparently. But yes, where the H did they get that? And in such good nick to judge by the woodwork.

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I think he has just fired a round, and the bolt has popped open in good old SMLE style. Being a No1 MkV, the rearsight has also self-adjusted itself forward! Interesting that the VC? shooter does actually appear to be taking aim properly through the sights; he's obviously a bit more aux fait with firearms than some of the Africans and Arabs I've tried to train in the past....

Rifles does appear to be in very good condition.

It looks like it may have been one of the transition pieces to the No4 Rifles. It would indeed be interesting to get it up close and personal to inspect.
I never had anything to do with Viet Nam other than to steam past it on the way back home. If the No1 and No4 rifles they had as well as everything else that was left behind by occupiers, was taken care of in the same manner of the stuff left behind in Africa, I would be extremely surprised if any of it survived. Unsupplied, irregular rebel forces have to use what they can get their hands on. Cleaning supplies are seldom part of the plunder. Those rifles got hidden in pits, without any protection from moisture amongst other places. I saw them in Africa where they were thrown into swamp muck and pulled out when needed. Cleaning or lubricating them, never entered their minds. Often as not, the ammunition, corrosive, went into hiding right beside the rifle. I suspect, the VC followed similar procedures and the attrition rate of their firearms was extremely high. Almost every Vietnam vet bring back I've ever seen was in atrocious condition. It's hard to say if they got that way before or after capture.
Maybe a few people with Vietnam relics could shed some more light on this.

I've seen NVA propaganda footage of a No4T being used by a VC sniper. May have been a recapture the Major was carrying.

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Originally Posted by Thunderbox

I think he has just fired a round, and the bolt has popped open in good old SMLE style. Being a No1 MkV, the rearsight has also self-adjusted itself forward! Interesting that the VC? shooter does actually appear to be taking aim properly through the sights; he's obviously a bit more aux fait with firearms than some of the Africans and Arabs I've tried to train in the past....

Rifles does appear to be in very good condition.

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I think you're right on all counts.

Sorry to disagree chaps but I think the apparently partially open bolt is due to camera angle. The pic is taken from slightly behind and low. You can see this from the angle of the F/S protectors. As a result, the bolt looks as though it's popped open. Not so! I think we discussed this phenomena at some length and while the bolt does tend to 'unwind' when dry-fired, it doesn't do the same when live firing - and certainly not to the extent shown!

If there is a sight that's folded down during recoil........., where is the upright 'battle sight' part of the sight. I think that this is one of those thousands of Mk5's that were unfinished when the project was abandoned in favour of the Mk6 and then...... Well, the rest is history........

Personally, I think that it's a posed picture as if he's firing, he's certainly not recoiling and the pic certainly doesn't illustrate any such movement, even muzzle smoke

As an afterthought, he's not flinching and if it'd just been fired the trigger would be at the back of the trigger guard.

It'd be great if someone could find a better resolution copy of this photo. I've tried to enhance it, but there is very little detail available.

I still reckon the backsight is there - the whole slider assembly seems to have moved up to the charger bridge end.

Still looks to me like the bolt is partially open - a black line seems to indicate a shadow under the bolt rib, and the "hump" of the bolt handle is clearly raised above the line of the bolt body.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...95631944-1.jpg

Mosin Nagant missing the hand gaurd in the background?

I think that's the flute of the folded bayonet that's playing optical illusion.

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Originally Posted by stan61

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Perhaps it came the route of the Australians in Vietnam as the book states a close relationship with them and U.S. Army Special Forces in that conflict.

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It could be, Australia sent 30 advisers to Viet Nam in 1962 and their forces slowly rose to battalion strength by 1965, then task force strength in 1966 but did the Aussies ever use the No.4 Sniper? Maybe Peter can comment? China received, IIRC, 40,000 Savage-made No.4s from the US as aid during the Second World War but none were sniper rifles, they were simply standard rifles. Since the Chinese were prime suppliers to the NVA by the late '60s, it is possible that some of the Savage rifles and even some Rifles No.1 were used. But, of course, that doesn't answer how a US officer got hold of a No.4 sniper..... :confused: Maybe it was a personal rifle that he purchased as surplus in the US? With his rank a personal weapon was not an unheard of thing.

My Battalion had No4T sniper rifles in Malaya but that was because the pooled Ordnance stocks were supplied by the Poms. I never saw a No4T used anywhere else and the Battalions in SVn The 'sniper rifle' there was a telescoped M-14 and Cpl Bond was i/c the snipers section in 8RAR. They weren't true 'snipers' but more 'good shots'

There was a lot of weaponry sloshing around but the battalions stuck to the order of battle

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Originally Posted by gew8805

But, of course, that doesn't answer how a US officer got hold of a No.4 sniper..... Maybe it was a personal rifle that he purchased as surplus in the US? With his rank a personal weapon was not an unheard of thing.

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gew 8805,

That's an easy question to answer.

Special Forces in those days was, (and probably still is), a bit different to the rest of the Army as far as weapons use was concerned. Within reason, SF troops were allowed to carry pretty much whatever they wanted - enlisted personnel, or officers. In acquiring a Weapons MOS, we trained on most foreign and domestic weapons, from WW II forward. I remember cadre telling our Weapons class, "When you get to 'Nam, get yourself a Browning High Power!" My brother-in-law, a veteran of CCN, carried a Swedish K. Different strokes...

Weapons of all types, eras and national origin were available. This officer obviously had excellent taste.

Terry

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I think that's the flute of the folded bayonet that's playing optical illusion.

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I see that now. Probably an m44 or other carbine then.

Terry ,Did you ever get that Browning High power? I've had one of the MkIII's for many years and love it! Never any FTF's with any type of ammo and no hammer bite despite my fair sized hands.

stan61,

Yes I did, but I think that isn't really a subject for this forum.

Cheers,

Terry

Fair enough!!

I've been intrigued by that photo for years, it is very early war but still makes you wonder just where it could have come from.