Demilled wwi po8?

I can not make this out. Lots of grinding to ruin this piece. The only clue is the stamping on the forward grip. Sorry the pics aren't very good.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/M1s079-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/M1s077-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/M1s076-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/M1s074-1.jpg If someone can make heads or tails out of this I will thankyou.
It reads...M.W.A. L.I.R. 38 _ _ B. 38. there is a mark I can't duplicate just above the two under lines(looks like two apostrophes ' ' )

A personal marking, not official, so could be anything. But no collector would do that, as it spoils the originality. So it must have been the original private owner, before P08s were regarded as collector's items. And he would only need to mark it to avoid confusion if he was coming into frequent contact with other P08 users - maybe a reserve officer?

Perhaps something like...

Herr M.W.A. Leutnant im Ruhestand/Reserve etc.

Pure guesswork, of course - you are welcome to use your own fantasy!

:wave:

Minen-
Werfer (i.e. mortar)
A...
L...
Infanterie
Regiment
38
....

Sorry, I can't find a proper match, and I still think the stamping looks so ragged that it was "privately" applied.

:wave:

Patrick, does this fit into the category of a WWI lugar that was de millitarized, though it seems if a reputable company did it it would have been done more professionally. All markings except the ser# have been removed as well. viewed in person on the left side I can make out a faint 191 and a mark the same size but can't make out the number, thought it might be a date between 1910-1919. Don't even know if they put the date there or not. also the ser# ends in 91 so not sure if some one marked it like that. but its all been worn or ground off. It might be worth a mention that this appears to have had some corrosion behind the handles so maybe the grinding was to rid some of that.(I know that's a long shot). Also the mag is WWII with ser#2435 and was told lugars are worth more if mag matches? More logs on the fire.

Any answers?

Patrick or Gunner, any answer to the post above. Same to any other P 08 xpert.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

And he would only need to mark it to avoid confusion if he was coming into frequent contact with other P08 users - maybe a reserve officer?

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Just to stir your fantasy - this is not serious history! With the confusion arising from the collapse of Imperial Germany and the chaos of the "Räterepublik" phase, the "Schwarze Reichswehr" and the growth of paramilitary movements, leading finally to the rise of the Nazis, it is quite conceiveable that a P08 was "privatized" by an ex-army person in one of these organizations. I stick by my previous opinion: the marking is too untidy to have been an official army mark of any kind.

Patrick
:wave:

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveN

Also the mag is WWII with ser#2435 and was told lugars are worth more if mag matches?

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Yes. Which is why those magazine bases are sold for more if they are not numbered... as I always say stamps are cheap, and anyone who pays a price that is inflated by stamped numbers needs to be very, very careful What you have to consider is - all those sets of number punches being sold on the unmentionable auction sites. Just ask yourself - am I feeling lucky!

:wave:

The removing of the lug most likely was the result of gun control actions. Some Luger owners thought that by having the lug on the gun they could be charged as having a firearm that was considered a short barreled rifle because a stock could be attached to it. Nothing was futher from ther truth but some panicked and by removing the lug they felt that they could not be charged with having a possible short barreled rifle as there was no way to attach a stock.

Sorry Dave, but without better photos I cannot deduce any more than I have already written*. For instance, I believe that some batches of Lugers for specific users were manufactured without the lug. The thing needs to be examined by a "hands-on" expert.
:wave:

*Photography tip: do not place the object on a structured background. You can see im some photos that the camera has focussed on the rug, not the pistol!

The stock lug has definitely been crudely removed, as has the metal on the front of the receiver and the lanyard loop. I know of no program to "demilitarize" Lugers following WWII other than alterations to make them conform to the Treaty of Versailles, of which the stock lug was not included.

You might also check to see if the macro function of your camera is turned on when making close ups.

Thank you all for the picture advice. I know I can do better but get rushed and impatient. I will try a little harder on the pics.

You are right about the non professional way this was worked. My only concern at this time is to do the best to determine the year it was made. The only thing is that it seems to be pre WWII. I'm not out any money on this so it's pure curiosity on my part. I'll try posting better pictures in the future.

The stock lug was added in late 1913 and very early 1914, so that narrows it some. A good picture of the acceptance marks on the right of the receiver would help.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../20i9bls-1.jpg

You say 1913 -1914 that certainly narrows it as I can with lots of diff angles and diff lighting and depending on how much gun solvent I've inhaled, make out a 191 and a fourth blob that would be a rounded number ie. 3 6 8 9 0 so it could be a 3 not a 4. I'm not sure I can get a pic of it that would show this but will have fun trying.

I think I got it https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0938-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0937-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0935-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0933-1.jpg also this on front is ser# with a c under it ,those are the only marks other than last two and the DMW on top. the pionter marks what looks like a 9 and looks like a 1 on either side?https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0928-1.jpg I only have a 18- 135 zoom lense and don't think the macro works with this lens. Did I mention it has been rebarreled as evidence by the loss of finish above the ser# and was told not done well but a very good barrel.
To add it is devoid of any marks on the right side of the receiver.
Also if you can make out the faint 91 on the left side it mimics the 91 stamped in the pic below with the 9 slightly lower than the 1.

I did some googling.... on the "Gentleman"s Military Interest Club" forum a writer spoke of a P.08 with the markings M.W.A.L.I.R.382.3B.54 .
Mine had M.W.A.L.I.R.38 . B.38 . It would appear that I have two missing numbers? In any event they say MWA =Minenwerfer Abteilung (an artillery Unit) LIR=Landwehr Infantry Regiment(in his case 382) All WWI and dating 1915,1916.

One of the post did mention the markings were not that uniform at the time,which would lend to the crude way mine is stamped.

I still haven't seen the picture of the other P.08 to see how similar it may be marked.

The P.08 in question is a Artillery Lugar and mine has had it's barrel changed. (shorter?)

MW=minenwerfer A=abteilungen L=landsturm I=infanterie R=regimenter There is LIR382,(1915) 383-388(1916) and a IR389 mine is undoubtedly one of those even though there is a LIR38 I do believe mine is missing a 3rd number. And the ( )B.38 is unknown to me but could it be i.e. I'll pick a number as mine is missing....2nd battalion (2B.) 38th something? Squad, platoon etc. My source is a link from the club mentioned above and was in German, but I did my best.

I took it down and discovered the slide and side plate are both marked 23, so even though the slide is unmarked it isn't from this p08 anyway. More evidence to my theory that this is a artillery lugar(DWM) that was destroyed but not enough to stop someone from a rebuild.

Better photos. https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lugar147-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lugar146-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lugar145-1.jpg

The LP.08 (Artillery) did not have a V notch rear sight on the rear toggle. The adjustable sight was mounted on the barrel just ahead of the receiver. Does your pistol have a V notch rear sight?
You barrel looks more like it was turned down on a lathe to remove pitting.

The rear toggle(now I know what that is called) does indeed have the v-notch site. The toggle and the bolt are from a gun with 87 as the last two. The consensus so far is the lower and all those parts are original and marked (91) and the part that connects the toggle to the bolt is original (DWM 91). Most who handled it at a gun show thought the barrel was a newer commercial addition. Non historical or what I think as after market.
I any event it's a parts gun, mix master but with the unit markings I can have some sense as to where it has been. I want to call it a shooter but in my research taking it apart looking for clues found that it's missing the HOLD OPEN LATCH and SPRINGwhich may be why it didn't shoot so good (single shot only) So if any one can help me find one of these rascals I would be most grateful.

Johnny the short answer to you question YES

Just to let you know I located the hold open latch and spring and it's on the way from Jack First gun parts of I think N.Dakota, thanks to Becky there and the Guys at the Ammo Attic here for pointing me in the right direction.

A lot of Lugers in the US and for the US market had the stock lugs ground in the 1950s and early 1960s, people being scared of the BATF even then.

Any German military Lugers I have seen have had the DATE stamped prominently on the receiver ring. Earliest I have had in my hands was a 1912 DWM which was interesting because it had no hold-open and had never been modded for one. Later, of course, they were built with the hold-open. If the date has been buffed, sometimes it can be raised with etching, although I am thinking a less-destructive method might do well, given the industrial X-ray and other imaging equipment available these days. We are getting usable results with UV light on compressed wood which has been sanded; surely there must be something of that ilk which would work on steel. Perhaps talk to an aircraft mechanic.

Sorry not to be more helpful.
.

There are undated Lugers, of course, but any I have run into have been commercials... such as the 99%+ commercial Navy I ran into a few years ago. My bank account was only 4 figures short of being able to afford it!

You need to ask a forensic laboratory (or a detective) what they use to read numbers that have been erased from steel - for instance on motor blocks of stolen vehicles. I seem to remember that it is probably X-rays, reacting to the changed scattering caused by the localized crushing of the metal where the stamp was applied.

Patrick
:wave:

smellie and patrick, Thank you both for the reply. When I started getting more of the same info on the possible history of this weapon it truly intrigued me. Knowing it's history is the world I live in, and means more then if the weapon is a perfect collector rather an orphaned instrument of war.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smellie

Any German military Lugers I have seen have had the DATE stamped prominently on the receiver ring. Earliest I have had in my hands was a 1912 DWM which was interesting because it had no hold-open and had never been modded for one.
.

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The 1908 Army pistols were not dated, and the hold open was added in 1913.