Nazi rebarrel on Yu. M1924 rifle

This is definitely a Yugoslav manufactured intermediate action model 1924 rifle. It was manufactured at Kragujevac in 1929. The stock and bolt are mismated. I gave $125 =shipping and transfer totaling $179. The seller made no mention of the German markings- in fact wasn't even sure of it's nationality and under-priced the weapon.

Anyway, I first noticed signs of German handling on it, German action screws, serial # stamped on butt plate and rear sight ladder. These are German marking practices, not Yugo. I took off the hand guard and it had the (matching, wonder of wonders!) serial number stamped in it too. Again, not a Yugoslav custom.

Then I saw the barrel had German stamps all over it. I am pretty familiar with Yugo markings but am woefully ignorant of German. The barrel is a German barrel, not Yugoslav. The Yugoslavians cut a relief for the extractor so as to let the entire cartridge case to be supported. This barrel has no such relief cut. There's a pic of each. It has a 0.2 stamp indicating a rebarrel. There seems to be some indecision about bore dia since it is stamped both "789" & "7.9." That's the little I do know. A Nazi rebarreling job? there is no Yugoslav proof on it. I don't know what a German proof looks like. But, if a Nazi capture, there is no single German marking or modification to the stock. Maybe a Partizan job?

I have had indications that the dirty bird behind the serial number is unfamiliar, unknown or doesn't look right. Faked? if so, are all the stamps faked? That's an awful lot of faked stamps. Too, where's the motivation? Kind of hard to pass this off as a German rifle when all the stamps were hidden under the hand guard. The seller obviously didn't pay a fortune for it nor begin to try to capitalize on it either.

I hope you can help me out. I have a load of pics. I'll dump what I can so you all can help me out. I got some info from one member already but want more. Remember, other than what I've mentioned, and the WWII era WaA, I don't know what any of those mean!

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looks like someone failed at humping up this rifle.

looking, it appears that the barrel was ground to remove the old serial, restamped it, then applied the wiemar eagles and the dirty in a fashion to make it look like the birds were partially ground as if they were there originally.

This one is tough. That barrel is indexed and went on in an arsenal. The Germans would have re-stamped everything, receiver, bolt, barrel. I'm guessing the Germans did not rebarrel the rifle. Maybe re-barreled in 1952-53? Not sure. I'm guessing that is a real German WWII barrel, the stamps look true to me. The Yugos had piles of German weapons after WWII. So anything is possible. You really need to find a Yugo Mauser guy, good luck.

As it happens, I AM a Yugo Mauser guy. I just don't know German details.

I'm, being persistent because, well, I have Croat (Hrvat) in my DNA and I'm stubborn as an old goat. Secondly, I'm not getting any thought out answers (save from Calif Steve there). Folks are just saying the bird "doesn't look right" so it's a "fake" or 'fantasy piece.'
When someone asks me about a Yugoslav rifle, I break it down for them, good or bad. This stamp is this and that one isn't that and then this one on the back of the front... So that they know what they have or don't have.

There is so much going on with this that is right that one questionable stamp doesn't signify. There was so much going on in Yugoslavia with different warring groups using who knows what weapons and repairing them as best they could, that anything is possible and deserves examination rather than being dismissed out of hand because it does not fit some preconceived notions.

An opinion from two other fellows I know allow they think it could be Partizan work. In particular, in 1941, the Germans took over two major arms works in Yugoslavia. They decided to concentrate their production efforts at the greater of the two and shut down and just closed the second and left it. That factory had been busy making Yugoslav M1924b rifles. Those are Gew.98 rifles with barrels cut down to and the rifle reconditioned to be a duplicate of their model 1924 rifles. Is this rifle was stamped MOHEN1924b (approximating Cyrillic script) this would be a shoo in.) But it isn't. A model 1924 repaired with a Gew.98 barrel cut down to "short rifle" length. Converting such barrels to that is what they did there. Is that a Gew.98 barrel? I don't know. As I said, I'm a Yugoslav guy. After a few months, the Germans bombed and recaptured that arms works. The Yugoslavs had dispersed the majority of the material there.

The changed serial number? It's matched to the rifle receiver. Nothing odd about that. Someone suggested that a surplus Gew.98 from, sayyy, sarco c

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xwarp

looking, it appears that the barrel was ground to remove the old serial, restamped it, then applied the wiemar eagles ...

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Please explain: what are the "wiemar" eagles, and where are they to be found?

:wave:

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

That barrel is indexed and went on in an arsenal

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Please explain: where is the index mark to be seen in those photos, and how does the existence of such a mark prove that the barrel was mounted in the receiver in an arsenal?

:wave:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim

There is so much going on with this that is right that one questionable stamp doesn't signify.

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... one questionable stamp doesn't signify ...

I respectfully suggest that your reasoning is erroneous. If something is mostly right, that does not prove that it is completely right. No-one has questioned that this is a Jugoslav rifle. The question is: has it been falsified. Just one fake stamp means that it has been falsified, even if everything else is 100%. That seems to be the issue.

FWIW. I cannot find a match to that incomplete marking that looks similar to a Reichsadler marking in "Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel auf Militär- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000" - 400 pages of hard facts and documentary evidence, not just a collection of opinions and hearsay. Neither can I match up the fragmentary "Fraktur" stamp on the barrel band with any stamp in the same book, which lists all identified inspectors stamps at the time of writing.

Of course, this does NOT prove that the stamps are fake. They may, for instance, be quite simply not German military stamps. And books are guidelines, not guarantees. But it does mean that until their provenance has been established, they must be regarded as suspect.

Patrick
:wave:

Patrick: I thought this model had an indexed barrel put on it. As I look closely at the breech photo, I don't believe this barrel was indexed. That makes re-barreling much easier. You simply crew on the barrel and line up the sights, easily done in small shops. None of this helps the basic question of "what is this". Thanks for pointing that out.

the last pic shows the "weimar" bird proofs.

in the 7th picture, you see the bird with the what is assumed is a "german dirty bird", you know the one typically seen on german firearms from the nazi period. interestingly, you see a partial circle, and not enough of anything really to actually determine if it is a german marking.

if that is supposed to be a "german swastika bird proof" stamp, then i am calling it a fake.

but it could very well be a proof that is real, but of another country and not a german marking, but would resemble one based on the poor depth of the proof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xwarp

the last pic shows the "weimar" bird proofs.

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I disagree. Those do not appear to be Weimar proofs.

Maybe it's my dodgy screen. Maybe it's my dodgy eyesight. But what I see in that last photo are 3 Nazi WaA stamps, one above the other. You can just about read the first as WaA24. WaA stamps are acceptance stamps, not proof stamps.

The incomplete stamp shows an approximation to the Reichsadler (a mark that dates back before the Nazi era, so there is no need to go all coy and describe it otherwise). The "dirty" bit is the swastika in a circle below the eagle, which is only hinted at.

I do not have the link, but I seem to remember such stamps being for sale in the USA. If you can find one offered that looks like the dubious bird, combine that with the fact that I cannot find an exact match in a very authoritative German work, and draw your own conclusions.

As has been pointed out by others, it is conceivable that this mark was "accidentally on purpose" applied so as to be incomplete. One could imagine top and bottom being unclear if the stamp was not properly rolled around the curve of the barrel. But the wingtips are faded out left and right - not so easy to explain. Let us be generous and assume it is pure coincidence that the wingtips on the nearest match that I can find have a different form...

My apologies on the delay in this response. I have been vary busy and this deserved, needed, to be well thought out. From here I will let be and not belabor the point further.

C'Steve is correct in that this model does have an indexed barrel. The Yugoslavs put a relief cut in the breech/barrel face for the extractor to allow the case head to be fully enclosed. This rifle does not have an indexed barrel, thus my assertion that the barrel is not Yugoslav and, considering the other stamps is in all probability German.
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Patrick Chadwick: Now you're talking! Naming things and sources!! That's the sort of thing I was looking for!!! The nature and degree of input from those sources indicate whether or not I have room for debate or just need to shrug my shoulders, say thanks, and head for the range to see if I at least have a shooter.

In ignorance, I ask to be educated. What please are- "incomplete marking that looks similar to a Reichsadler marking in "Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel auf Militär- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000"

and- the fragmentary "Fraktur" stamp on the barrel band

"Of course, this does NOT prove that the stamps are fake. They may, for instance, be quite simply not German military stamps. And books are guidelines, not guarantees. But it does mean that until their provenance has been established, they must be regarded as suspect."

Exactly my point! I know squat about German stuff- that's why I'm here. But, I do know a great deal about Yugoslav stuff, as far as is known, and that's why I'm digging in my heels at simply shrugging this off. If we can at least allow that this may be authentic, it would add a great deal to our very limited knowledge base on such things WWII Yugoslav.
Please, read on...

Based on what you've told me and with knowledge I have and you may lack, I believe I have room to debate. I just cannot debate, vague, unspecific comments like "That [one thing] doesn't look right to me…" I realize that that vague comment is probably based upon much observation and not without merit. I just isn't definitive however. Also I cannot (nor would I bother to) debate a comment like; "That's a known stamp- we've seen it before and know it's a fake." Something like the… what is it, a WaA633 stamp that is known to have been sold in great numbers for "restoring" >: (ack!) rifles.

Yet... somebody bothered to mount a Yugoslav front and rear sight on a German barrel and then mix Yugoslav stamps with the German. It makes no sense for a forger to go to all that bother on a rifle like this. That's the main reason I stick at conceding this as a fake. Fakers are motivated by profit and the variations visible on this rifle are not consistent with rifle forgers operations since they just muddy the conversion and puts opportunity for profit at risk. Furthermore, there are Yugoslav models worth more than any variation like this one. If you know Yugos, all a forger would have to do would be to… well, I'll PM this to you ______ I don't want to put such ideas on web just on the principle of things. Finally, the potential for profit on a Yugoslav rifle just aren't there. $400-$500 dollars is about tops for any Yugoslav model 1924 rifle. There's one possible exception but this doesn't even remotely appear like that one.

But, having said such a conversion makes no sense from a forgery standpoint… it makes a lot of sense for a Yugoslav resistance, Chetnic or Partizan, to make such a repair. The presence of the Yugo stamps alongside the German stamps is also consistent with, if not yet verified, work.
There were also various ethnic Nazi organizations of native troops in the region. By example, Bosnian Muslim/Moslem(?) troops, Croatian troops (among whom, God forbid, may have been some of my own kin) up to and including the Ustache (Ustashi, Ustashi, &tc.) and I don't know who all else. Anyway, any or all of these organizations likely had armorers maintaining weapons and the Nazis often issued such secondary weapons to such native auxiliaries.

Another possible source was the Uzice arms works who, prior to the Nazi take over in 1941, was specifically involved in converting Gew.98 rifles to Yugoslav M1924 specs including mounting of Yugoslav sights on modified barrels. The resultant rifles were designated M1924b. The Nazis found many barrels and parts of unfinished rifles. They took completed weapons but decided to concentrate their production efforts at the much larger Kragujevac complex and basically just locked the gates of Uzice and left it with everything inside. The Partizans wasted no time in opening it up and putting it back in business to the extent they could. Needless to say, such activity did not escape Nazi notice and they bombed the place. The Partizans dispersed all the material they could haul away prior to the Nazi return and recapture of the place. Of the rifles turned out of this operation, some estimated 10,000, only a handful remain and are almost as varied in appearance and detail as the number examples (and sometimes those are only photos) they have.

To wrap up this rather long comment, let me observe that the various resistance organizations and especially the "Partizans" (not a generic term but referring specifically to the Communist resistance troops under Tito) as the foremost, that is the largest, most organized and most effective group in the region, had armory operations set up and various and sundry places. These places did have and use stamps to keep track of things done to their weapons. Many are not cataloged. Therefore, any single example may be authentic.

That brings us back (by an admittedly circuitous route) to my assertion that, in the gray area of wartime Yugoslavia, any one merely "suspect" stamp does not negate the whole. The Yugoslavs did make stamps by hand, we see such variations in the stamps on post war refurbished rifles. Who knows what stamps were made locally up to and including for the Nazis???
By example, look at some of these post WWII (from 1946 on) Yugoslav crests and note the degree of variation in something supposedly made to one (I suspect actually two different)- patterns...
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There you have it. My last pitch. I will not belabor the point further. And thanks to all who bothered (or yet bother) to reply.

Here are a couple of stamps. The nearest Reichsadler match I could find was the second example.

Attachment 21442

It is the only example I could find of an eagle with the pinion feathers drawn as separate from the main body of the wings. And the tips are rounded. Please compare with the stamp on the rifle

And here is an example of Fraktur - you may know it as "gothic" or "black letter".

Attachment 21443

The Fraktur stamps are often devilishly hard to identify, especially when incomplete or worn.

Patrick
:wave:

BTT for a thread I want to visite next week

I would like to add in addition to Patricks observations, that the orientation of the firing proof on thr barrel is in correct, as is the font of the serial number for a German rework or production. While I certainly agree in a wartime environment let alone a Partizan resistance, that all sorts of things can occur, I do not feel this rifle's barrel is genuine. The proofs are stamped poorly and seemingly in the wrong places. Also, while this is not definitive, from what I understand, the Yugoslav reworks were of Gewehr 98 rifles, which were given to them after WWI. These were definitely rebuilt and used by the partizans, but would not have bore any nazi markings.

O.k., I understand this is an old thread, but I just found it while researching other, related matters. Mea culpa if this violates any rules.

I've seen pics of this rifle before on other fora, and also had and still hold reservations about it's authenticity. I say this as a collector of both pre-war Yugoslav rifles, and 'Beutewaffen' alike. I own examples of captured and subsequently re-marked rifles that went through German depots, and have seen a decent number of related stamps and markings.

What do you think about this being a faker's 'experiment piece,' on which some techniques and markings were essentially 'beta-tested' before moving onto more successful and more lucrative projects? There's just not enough similarity to other known, legit examples out there for me to feel confident about it's authenticity. I'd like it to be legitimate, and I'd like to know that Jim didn't lose out on his purchase, but I just don't see this going that way.

Further opinions?
Best,
Pat