-
Ithaca M37 - WWII or Vietnam?
-
Based on this shotgun serial number list,/web page, it would appear as if the receiver was manufactured in 1943.
Here's a link to that reference. I don't know about the other stamps.
-
It's maybe one of the riot guns sold to Vietnam in the early 1960s. They had both a normal Ithaca serial number on the receiver as well as an S prefix number on the face of the receiver and the barrel. The S prefix was usually hand stamped. But these may or may not have also been US marked with the P proofs. Does you gun also have the S prefix number on the receiver face?
The N in a box mark looks like a Czech proof mark found on shotguns.
-
I believe this one is not original military at all.
-
Speedgunner,
Can you clarify upon what fact you believe that? No, it's not my shotgun, just doing research on it.
Georg
-
The markings would indicate VN era. But it is hard to tell if it is real.
The S/N on the right side of the receiver does not indicate WWII manufacture. All guns made well after WWII had the serial on the face of the receiver, not on the left side.
Guys fake a lot of stuff, but the serial on the left side of the receiver almost certainly makes it a VN gun, since the lowest factory number on non military guns found in that position are probably in the 900,000 range.
Also, the VN guns had a short stock with a rubber recoil pad.
-
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scosgt
The markings would indicate VN era. But it is hard to tell if it is real.
The S/N on the right side of the receiver does not indicate WWII manufacture. All guns made well after WWII had the serial on the face of the receiver, not on the left side.
Guys fake a lot of stuff, but the serial on the left side of the receiver almost certainly makes it a VN gun, since the lowest factory number on non military guns found in that position are probably in the 900,000 range.
Also, the VN guns had a short stock with a rubber recoil pad.
Actually, his serial number, 69446, does indicate WWII manufacture. The serial number blocks for the model 37 run to 1943 (63,001 - (69446) - 69,999) then they gap to '46.
Just for the sake of FYI because it has no bearing here, Ithaca did continue shotgun production in '44 & 45. They just did not maintain any serial number records for them for those 2 years. I got this from Ithaca customer service. I asked because my shotgun's number (90241) fell in that gap and I couldn't account for it.
Now, I am not saying his shotgun is 'real'/correct, I do not have the knowledge for that. Neither can I vouch for serial number location. However, my (probably) 1945 model 37 commercial model, (not military marked) shotgun has the serial number on the front of the receiver, not on the side (as mentioned above).
My 1945 mfg gun (the barrel was cut down, it is marked "full." Note too, that, unless I'm mistaken, that is not a standard Ithaca recoil pad.)
Attachment 23392 Attachment 23393
-
The info about 1943 serial numbers running from 63,001 rto 69446 is not entirely correct. There are many WWII Ithaca Model 37 shotguns in the high 64,000 serial number range that were shipped in the last half of 1942. There were even a few guns shipped that were in the 70,000 range. These were long barreled guns.
-
I ain't no expert. I just cited figures from this reference- http://www.ithacagun.com/pdfs/serialnumbers.pdf linked from the Ithaca Gun Company site. http://www.ithacagun.com/
I'm interested in learning more about these guns. May I have your reference please?
I'm not too surprised to hear some were long barreled guns. The AAC used trap and/or skeet shooting to train aerial gunners to lead their shots and traditional long guns were used for that. Whether any particular make or model were used I have no idea.
-
The source of the info is the Ithaca WWII Military contract shipping records. The vast majority of the Ithaca shotguns shipped to the Military during WWII were long barreled shotguns.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom Doniphon
The source of the info is the Ithaca WWII Military contract shipping records. The vast majority of the Ithaca shotguns shipped to the Military during WWII were long barreled shotguns.
Great source that! Are those available for view on-line (I rather doubt it) How does one get to see such? If you have access or notes, can you tell me if a number 90241 (my '45 gun) would be on such a listing?
I'd appreciate the info, book name, whatever.
-
No, the info is not available online. The shipping records are all from 1941 and 1942. The highest numbered Model 37 shotguns in the records are in the 800,000 range, and there are only a few of them. The high numbered guns all have long barrels.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom Doniphon
No, the info is not available online. The shipping records are all from 1941 and 1942. The highest numbered Model 37 shotguns in the records are in the 800,000 range, and there are only a few of them. The high numbered guns all have long barrels.
Do you mean 80,000?
-
Sorry. Yes, I meant in the early 80,000 range.
-
Do not depend on the current Ithaca company for serial number info. They are NOT the manufacturers, they bought the name, after several other investors had done so.
That appears to me to be a VN era gun, except that I am confused by the serial number. As stated, WWII era guns did not have a serial on the side of the receiver. As well, the VN ear trenchguns with the S numbers were in a strange serial range.
-
I seem to recall Pat Redmond telling me many years ago that they used "WWII" serial numbers for the VN military guns, but put them on the side of the receiver. I think the actual serial number of the gun would be the number on the side, the S number is a "special" number that ran from 1-25000 for the contract. I think the actual serial they used was from an unused block from the end of WWII.
I do think the gun is VN military. There is NO SUCH THING as a 60000 serial M37 with the serial on the side of the receiver, all the serials up to at lest 300k were on the front of the receiver. I think the VN military guns were the only exception to that rule.
Forget about that "69000 WWII range". NO such thing. The Trap and Skeet grades got a whole different serial range, they were in the 80000 range for WWII production.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scosgt
Do not depend on the current Ithaca company for serial number info. They are NOT the manufacturers, they bought the name, after several other investors had done so.
That appears to me to be a VN era gun, except that I am confused by the serial number. As stated, WWII era guns did not have a serial on the side of the receiver. As well, the VN ear trenchguns with the S numbers were in a strange serial range.
Granted. However, they do have such records from the original company as remained. At least a good staring point.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim
Granted. However, they do have such records from the original company as remained. At least a good staring point.
No, they don't. All the military contract records were turned over to the Gov't many years ago. The records that are available, of which I have a full copy, were found in the National Archives. The current Ithaca Gun CO does not have the military records. In fact, what they do have they may have gotten from Walt Snyder, who wrote the book.
In fact, I stopped by Ithaca in Ithaca, NY back around 1981 and toured the museum. THEY did not have any of the WWII or VN records. They were all turned over.
-
OK. Thanks for the clarification.
May one ask how you came by a whole copy? Secondly, have you considered publishing (if not otherwise restricted) the thing? I am confident plenty of folks would be interested in having such.
-
6 Attachment(s)
Sorry to dig out my old thread, but I finally purchased the rifle for a very fair price (couldn't do wrong at that price :) ).
It came with a heat shield which I believe is wrong for the M37 with 4 rows of 19 holes each. I suppose that one it came is for the 1897, since it is W marked on the bayonet lug? Have to ask the seller, I know he has a second heat shield aswell - maybe that one would be the correct one for the Ithaca..
Regarding the rifle, I was able to find out that it was imported with a ton of other stuff by a (long gone) company called Trigon in 1994 from Vietnam, therefore it might also saw service there.
