Bedding the "H" Barrel SMLE

Howdy all, here's a little job I've been getting into. The next project has arrived and so this on must be finished and moved on.
I bought a crusty old '41 Lithgow SMLE a while ago. It was all matching No's but the barrel was rusted out, and the wood was beat up as hell but thoroughly sound.
The metal was excellent and the action showed little wear.
My only thought was that I could get a great shooter out of it with a replacement barrel.
I had a good, used heavy barrel, and put it in, then reamed out the rear sight base, mounted and fitted it.
Now I'm bedding the forend in the same method I've seen used successfully on other No1 range rifles that I've pulled apart, that is barrel bearing on the full length of the forend forward of the centre band.
The recoil lugs were already fitted perfectly and the barrel naturally sat in the centre of the barrel channel. I just needed to enlarge for the heavy barrel.
The only tool I've used to inlet it is a smallish curved chisel/gouge.
I've blued the whole barrel and knox with bearing blue, the reinforce needed a little relief, but the rest of the action was perfect and there fore left alone.
The top wood will need fitting and I'll just tidy up the finish on the inside of the channel, but it's gone great, the standard muzzle cap fits perfectly, and I'll be extremely surprised if this fella doesn't do the business on the range.

ahh, I do love to see a workshop with an enfield project going together ...

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Originally Posted by RJW NZ

ahh, I do love to see a workshop with an enfield project going together ...

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same here, after using T' bones pictures for my own bedding job next week, ill move onto the all matching 1918 sporterised BSA with N /\ Z markings i found for 200 bucks today.

That can liven up my workbench ;D

I thought that I could get the top wood to bear on the top of the barrel, but turns out that packing is essential to this. I'm not keen on that so I used bearing blue to ensure no contact of the top wood when fitted.
If the rifle shows that its accuracy is wanting then I'll pack it, but I think it'll be fine.
I plugged the centre barrel ring hole with beech so nothing can fall in there.
All in all I'm very happy with the job.
I'll give a range report ASAP.

Nice bit of timber work there, should be a nice peice on the range look forward to seeing results.
Regards
Fergs

Ditto, nice work, especially with the ol chisel in the channel.
Where does a bloke buy bearing blue, as in what kind of stores?

Whats the plan for the nosecap hole, are you leaving it stock or opening it up? My Fultons has about a 25 thou gap, which is close and looks right. I've had rifles with the hole opened way up and then the gap blocked with rubber hose to keep possums out, but I always thought that a tight fitting bit of rubber hose would completely defeat the free floating barrel concept.
I'm a bit confused about your bedding plan re packed hand gaurds, is the barrel free floated the whole length or part floated?

cheers, nice work, ya can't help loving a wolf in sheep's clothing.

You buy the bearing blue in bearing suppliers, like "ABC Bearings", took me a while to find it and I felt like a dill when I found out where to get it.
I'm going tho leave the nose cap hole as the standard size.
The barrel isn't floated, it bears on the centre line of the forend all the way from the centre band to the tip of the forend, the idea of packing the guards is to hold the barrel down and dampen vibration, don't know the physics I've just seen it on a lot of range rifles, but as it stands I think it will be fine, we'll see. Easy enough to retro fit, but if possible I don't want to add cork, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it on the HT's, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm going tho leave the nose cap hole as the standard size.
The barrel isn't floated, it bears on the centre line of the forend all the way from the centre band to the tip of the forend, the idea of packing the guards is to hold the barrel down and dampen vibration, don't know the physics I've just seen it on a lot of range rifles, but as it stands I think it will be fine, we'll see. Easy enough to retro fit, but if possible I don't want to add cork, I'm pretty sure they didn't do it on the HT's, correct me if I'm wrong.

The only H bedding I'm familiar with is a 3/4 inch wide by 1 inch 'pad' under the first inch of the barrel and fully floated from there to the tip, thats what is on those pictures of an H target I posted here about 4 weeks ago.It was making cloverleafs at 25 yards.
The other H method I know of is like the No4, bedded to the mid band and floated from the band to the tip.
Both have the nose cap opened up quite a bit.

The only time I've heard of the style you've mentioned is in James Sweets 1954 book and is referring to packing the barrel channels on stock barreled no1 mk3's, which resulted in nearly 1 MOA at 100 etc, not bad for a stock barrel over iron sights, huh?

The cool thing with your approach is you can work your way through several methods and find which your rifle likes the most. I think my only suggestion would be that as you're damping the vibes the way you are would be to make sure the nose cap attaches smoothly and squarely without torquing the barrel at all, and to use paper shims to make the hole in the nose cap is a tight fit on the barrel, instead of a potential 'buzzy' fit, usually a single layer of paper at 3.5 thou for common A4 paper, is enough to make a perfect push on snug fit.
Oh, and btw something I've seen on the enfield target rifles I've had from the golden days is that the barrels lay on the wood on a layer of graphite something, like a powder, probably helps it return to center.
All the best, looking forward to seeing the perforated paper ... with one ragged hole

Hey, young Tbone... The real test isn't to see it shoot 1" groups at 100yds. That's pretty easy to achieve- fully floated, partial floater, centre bedded, muzzle bedded semi floater, India packing, - all can give you 1 inch. What you are after is a rifle that will hit an aiming mark with a cold barrel, first shot. Then fire four more shots within a couple of minutes, then go straight on to fire your five shot group. Usually you will find the first four are stringing an inch apart vertically, the rest might cut a nice group. Gives you 4+ moa... a pretty ****full result, really.

Best of luck, mate... I will admit to having fluked it more than once...

We shall see...

A pleasure to see that woodwork TBone. I hope the plugged inserts are all done with the plug/insert grain running with the grain. Do you ever use or even have access to that old melt-in-the-pot bone glue?

It reminds me of xxxxing hours and hours spent, xxxxed off, learning to do and fit butt patches, cutting out and skeletonising woodwork for these stupid apprentice projects and test pieces that I always failed miserably. Happy days. Now I enjoy it, especially if it's something like patching up a butt from a captured Thompson gun or a Mk5 Sten pistol grip or Bren bit. Well, it must be range tested afterwards I always tell myself and the ammo storeman

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Originally Posted by Son

Hey, young Tbone... The real test isn't to see it shoot 1" groups at 100yds. That's pretty easy to achieve- fully floated, partial floater, centre bedded, muzzle bedded semi floater, India packing, - all can give you 1 inch. What you are after is a rifle that will hit an aiming mark with a cold barrel, first shot. Then fire four more shots within a couple of minutes, then go straight on to fire your five shot group. Usually you will find the first four are stringing an inch apart vertically, the rest might cut a nice group. Gives you 4+ moa... a pretty ****full result, really.

Best of luck, mate... I will admit to having fluked it more than once...

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Glad your are not my BOSS. Go for it Tbone choccy frog is the prize

Happy to report that the rifle shoots very well. Didn't really get scientific today, just tested it out in a match, 100m:2 sighters on a figure 12 then 5 rounds single snap, into a 5 round rapid all on a figure 12, then 3 exposures, double tap on the figure 12, then 3 doubles and 3 singles on a figure 14.
I had to use 6 O'clock hold because I couldn't get the elevation, and I had to hold off a bit, but I got all the hits on the 12 in a nice small group, but could only get 3/9 on the 14 as I just couldn't estimate the hold off until I'd seen quite a few splash.
So I'll change the foresight to a lower one, and adjust the foresight over a little bit, but this rifle will do just fine in this sort of club competition.
I need to get it to eject a bit more posotively too, I guess it's either the extractor or the spring (or both). I've come across this a bit, any one have some spares to sell me, I don't have many and they're all pretty second hand?
200m next week, I'll make adjustments and try to put a group down.

Sounds good so far. Once you finish setting it up and it's had a couple hundred down the tube will be time to try shooting groups, both hot and from cold. One question... did you treat the exposed wood in the foreend channel? I've seen arguments for both oiling and leaving it raw, some then give it a liberal coat of powdered graphite... Your rifle may spend a few "outings" settling down before it constantly performs.

Not quite choccy frog yet, but on the way! Well done!

I don't see the point of graphite, I think I just gave it a light wipe over with some BLO, to seal it somewhat. I figured that powdered graphite might help only if there was more than one possible location of the barrel in the channel, but this barrel and action are bedded so that there is only one possibility, down the centreline of the inletted channel. It can't sit left by a fraction, or right by a fraction, because the draws, and the wrist are fitted perfectly, as is the knox. The channel is cut so the barrel can be pushed left or right by a little, but the centre line is the bottom of the channel which is smooth, therefore any movement of the barrel left or right, means " climbing " the channel sides, and it can't do that anyway as the nose cap fits, with its factory hole, firmly, and it too is dead on the centre line.
I'm pretty sure that this is going to be winner, with some really basic adjustment(ie sights etc). But we'll see.

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Do you ever use or even have access to that old melt-in-the-pot bone glue?

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I think I used it at TAFE when I was learning my first trade (Shipwrighting). I havn't seen any for sale, but I assume that some specialized timber working shops have it, why not? They still sell that cows milk based one, and a lot of other weird adhesives. Is it somehow advantageous to use?

Re the old boil in the pot wild animal glue Tbone. No advantage at all really and the modern wood working adhesives are far superior., It's just that I remember the smell. Reminds me of my first girlfriend................ Not the smell, - just the wild animal part!

I think I used it at TAFE when I was learning my first trade (Shipwrighting). I haven't seen any for sale, but I assume that some specialized timber working shops have it, why not? They still sell that cows milk based one, and a lot of other weird adhesives. Is it somehow advantageous to use?

I should have known there'd be a fellow shipper on the other end of that enfield dust, I was at the Nth Shore Yacht Squadron around 81 ish, til I got a phone call to make rocks for the movies, after that boats were history.

Mmmm, the familiar smell of chop strand rocks, I went into Cabinet and Furniture building... can't say I miss it...

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It reminds me of xxxxing hours and hours spent, xxxxed off, learning to do and fit butt patches, cutting out and skeletonising woodwork for these stupid apprentice projects and test pieces that I always failed miserably. Happy days. Now I enjoy it,

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Have to admit, I,ve gone full circle regarding parts of my Apprenticeship as a Fitter/Turner (in a shipyard) and enjoy it now more than ever, although after two weeks out my time, I resigned and went off to start a career at sea, there are many times I need to use a lathe at work, but when its for myself and using the one at home, lots of job satisfaction.

Little did I realise at 16 in the shipyard training school, spending hours lining up work in a four jaw, taking the smallest cuts at the slowest speed, and being bored to tears .... how much it would be of benifit in the future.

It was not long ago that I metioned it in a email to Wheaty that I was looking at finishing my qualifications off, it was only when I was asking about exams or anything close to what I had started many years ago and informed the young person that I had finished My Apprenticeship, served as an Engineer in the Merchant Navy for the last 20 or so years, I was told I couldnt just do the exams, I also had to do some form of practical on the job training.............. sometimes its just best to put the phone down.

I spent the first 6 months of my apprenticeship just just hacksawing & filing, we then progressed on to using the old elliot shaping machines, then lathes & mills etc. 30 years later these skills come in handy for making parts & repairing these old guns. Once you learnt how to file correctly you never forget!!!

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Originally Posted by Simon P

I spent the first 6 months of my apprenticeship just just hacksawing & filing, we then progressed on to using the old elliot shaping machines, then lathes & mills etc. 30 years later these skills come in handy for making parts & repairing these old guns. Once you learnt how to file correctly you never forget!!!

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Simon, Did you forget the scraping? thats all I remember on the fitting benches, scraping everything flat, before you could even start to mark out, then the filing could commence.
After 6 months on the fitting benches we moved on to the machines, then to the electrical section, the sheetmetal section, then back to fitting benches, to continue with brazing , hydraulics etc. After 10 -12 months they then let us out into the shipyard.
A few other big companies in the area sent thier apprentices to train with us, as at the time it was considered one of the best training centres in the North West.

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Originally Posted by Simon P

I spent the first 6 months of my apprenticeship just just hacksawing & filing, we then progressed on to using the old elliot shaping machines, then lathes & mills etc. 30 years later these skills come in handy for making parts & repairing these old guns. Once you learnt how to file correctly you never forget!!!

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AMEN- had to teach an OJT kid how to spring a file to get a flat surface last week- and he's all but done, coming through our military system!

I served my time in a coal mine. We had two old lathes and a shaping machine, two large drill presses. Probably how I learned to not let lack of equipment stop you from doing anything, it just slows you down. I made a fly cutter for one drill press, with a locking tab to secure it in the Morse taper. After doing a couple of milling jobs with it, I convinced the Engineer we needed a milling machine- he bought a manual cross feed vise!

I even made a pneumatic powered portable line borer from scratch with a motor and reduction boxes off roof bolting drills. Saved the company $hit loads on man-and-machine hire to do jobs on site.

These days you cannot make anything, you cannot use anything that isn't commercially made, and no-one is willing to jump through the many hoops that OH&S has put up that stop us from using our trade to the fullest potential. I feel that the "thinking trade" of fitter machinist is destined to become a "read the book and follow the bouncing ball" type job taught in two weeks and concerns one type of operation on one type of machine per person... sweat shop style.

Sad.

rant mode off...

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Originally Posted by Son

I feel that the "thinking trade" of fitter machinist is destined to become a "read the book and follow the bouncing ball" type job taught in two weeks and concerns one type of operation on one type of machine per person... sweat shop style.

Sad.

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Hit the nail on the head with that one Son, just before christmas I had to explain to a recent qualified Engineer what a bearing scraper is.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Simon, Did you forget the scraping

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Bigduke
After scraping the Vees slides on our 32ft bed Butler planing machine its a nightmare I was trying to forget !!!

It sounds like we done similar apprenticeships, we also done a bit of carpentry as well as spending time in the blacksmiths forge, great for cooking your breakfast in the fire each morning..

I still work for the same company & our training school is still there but scaled down, except our apprentices only do a 2 year NVQ based apprenticeships.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Hit the nail on the head with that one Son, just before christmas I had to explain to a recent qualified Engineer what a bearing scraper is.

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They should be made serve ten years as the T/A (trades assistant) in whichever industry they are to work in before any tradesman has to take instructions from them.

For the benefit of the non English readers, those NVQ qualifications you read about are one of the 'qualificatioins' that are meaningless but look good...., a bit like GCSE's. The NVQ actually stands for '.......not very qualified......'

In our local newspaper there was a big thing about new apprentices starting somewhere. It was a second hand cycle repair shop for 6 weeks...... 6 weeks................ I spent that amount of time filing great lumps of mild steel into stupid 4 way shapes!

The GOOD bit about the old apprenticeships was that if you went further and to Uni, then you were pretty well exempt the first year of rubbish that you already knew and had practiced for years and years..............

But many years down the line, I recently went to our technical stores to get a box of light bulbs to do the general maintenance things myself instead of waiting....., you know the sort of thing.......... To be told that now that commercialisation and whatever else they call it has taken over, I can't do these jobs because I'm not qualified and a contractor has to be called in. I said to the girl behind the counter............. Well, I can't tell you in polite company what I said to her but later that afternoon I took down and showed the Tech Stores manager my paperwork starting at school and onwards. Sadly it didn't include a bulb changing certificate and licence. But it's Sunday morning, it's warm and sunny so you've got to laugh..........

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Originally Posted by Simon P

It sounds like we done similar apprenticeships, we also done a bit of carpentry as well as spending time in the blacksmiths forge, great for cooking your breakfast in the fire each morning..

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Thought I,d dig out some of the bits I still kept, The only carpentry we did was for the handles(which started as square blocks of wood) on the bearing scraper and screwdriver, the basis for these were old files that were cooked and cooled slowly, the only bits we were given for the tools below was the screws, which were knocked out by who ever was on the capstan, you can tell how old the designs are by the screwdriver profile.Even the wing nut was hanmade.
The jaws in the pliers was a good test, after bending and rivoting the insert it was best to file the jaws first then clean up the rest, a few tears were shed for those who left the teeth for last, same went for the tool makers clamp when testing the hacksaw skils.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF4262-1.jpg
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My enfield man cave in action a year or two back, and thats a carbon fiber thingy on a 66 ishapore. Now that was an accurate rifle!

Second range test yesterday at 300m. Rifle grouped 5 rounds in about 12" from prone with sling(8" wide, 12" vertically), unsupported. Group was about 18" right, so I've made a correction on the foresight and the foresight is now all the way over one side. Didn't have a chance to shoot again after adjustment. If the rifle is now zero'd, I'll shoot some groups off some bags to better gauge accuracy.
I'll be very happy if I can get reliable 2MOA (6" at 300m) groups off the bags. I'm hoping that quite a bit of the group enlargement is due to me and my lack of regular use of standard No1Mk3 sights. Shooting off sandbags will help too.

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Originally Posted by tbonesmith

Second range test yesterday at 300m. Rifle grouped 5 rounds in about 12" from prone with sling(8" wide, 12" vertically), unsupported. Group was about 18" right, so I've made a correction on the foresight and the foresight is now all the way over one side. Didn't have a chance to shoot again after adjustment. If the rifle is now zero'd, I'll shoot some groups off some bags to better gauge accuracy.
I'll be very happy if I can get reliable 2MOA (6" at 300m) groups off the bags. I'm hoping that quite a bit of the group enlargement is due to me and my lack of regular use of standard No1Mk3 sights. Shooting off sandbags will help too.

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Just a quick comment from my own experiences shooting with slings... I found that I couldn't ensure I was wrapping into the sling with the same tension each time- probably because I wasn't getting regular enough practice to have developed a feel for the sling. Shooting with a sling I was getting groups stinging vertically as the rifle warmed up, and even when hot couldn't achieve anything close to a good group. I removed the sling and start doing all my shooting without, and just with the foreend resting on my open left palm- no grip at all. This seemed to eliminate the vertical stringing and tightened my groups from every shooting position.

Please take into account I am a middle order B grader at best. But I found the tension taken downward at the front swivel, with the foreend across the hand just forward of the front trigger guard screw seemed to mess with the bedding. Once again, when hot it shouldn't matter as long as everything is the same for every shot, but I had separate groups printing many inches apart vertically and could have only been from altered sling tension.

You may well be right, but this rifle is going to be sold to a club member (I hope) when it's finished. And it will be used at all ranges with a sling as everyone tends to use them. So I have to set it up to shoot well with a sling. It doesn't need to be spectacular, just a solid, very good, reliable performer. Even an 8" group would keep them in the bull at 300m, but 6" would leave a little margin for shooter error.
Next week is at 100m, so I hope to have it sorted out when I test again then. I will report.

100m standing was not too bad today with this rifle but it is still shooting a little bit right, so it won't be right for longer ranges, and I'm out of adjustment on the foresight. I was standing so no great stories about the groups, but I could tell I was dropping points beyond those I pulled. I will have to pull it out of the wood, and have a good look at it all from a fresh perspective. It might eliminate a possibility and be a good first point to check the bore sighting in the wood as it sits now and then again with the barreled action alone, that should tell me if the barrel is being "bent" by the wood or the nose cap...
We'll get there but this is very frustrating (yet educational..)
In good news I did get to unleash my No4T rebuild on the full bore range at 700m, and got a few bulls with 2 points of wind on the scope (and guess what there was 2 points of wind blowing!!!) so I guess that ones pretty well collimated, there's one saga happily in the rear vision mirror anyway. Wrapped with that accuracy. Next week is at 800m, I might ask nicely and get to shoot a full stage with it.

Update.
Since the last report I've had the rifle on the bench at 100m and tried with an opened up nose cap and no good. The foresight is right over the right hand side and the rifle is still shooting 8" right at 100m. Groups are mediocre. Something seriously amiss.
Today I pulled the rifle down, and found tell tails of quite firm pressure on the barrel from the forend on the right hand side at about the centre band, I hit the barrel again with bearing blue and then relieved the wood, so it's only bearing at the middle of the channel, and more towards the front. Interestingly the nose cap went on a bit easier, and now when I push the barrel up it goes up, in the fairly tight nose cap. ie the barrel is naturally sitting at the bottom of the hole. Anyway it looks and feels pretty promising, but I'll have to wait 'till next week to test it. Fingers crossed.

Just check how much contact the foreend has with the butt socket right at the rear (.002" feeler gauge), and make sure the recoil blocks are equally tight and have good even contact down their faces.

It's never as easy as just a bedding job. I've done a few and only once has my initial work improved the grouping. Most times it's worse!

Check carefully that the barrel has not travelled past top dead centre.

This is a problem with these old girls and it is the reason why, in later years, Lithgow produced replacement barrels with two different thread starts. There was a barrel meant for breeching up into new receivers or those with minimal thread crush or wear, and another meant for more "pre-loved" receivers. I have the data for start points for the thread on the Lithgow-made replacement No4 barrel and am trying to find that for the heavy SMLE barrel. I have a reference to a gauge used for setting up the standard SMLE barrel thread, but I don't have the drawings or full data for that gauge.

The difference is only a few degrees, but that is all it takes. If you ream out and fit a sight base on a heavy barrel, dead parallel to the receiver, but your front sight is effectively canted a degree or two, it gets very untidy.

Not saying that this is what happened, just that it is just one more trap for young and old players.

Regarding bedding, Mr. Sweet had lots to say on the subject in his classic book which was, at one time, available in this site. The pertinent bits are from page 63 to 74 inclusive.

The fit of the forend at the receiver end is untouched and absolutely perfect. I did ream out the rear sight base, and fit it, but I was careful to use the knox flat as the datum. As it was for breeching up. The problem I found would explain the problem of the rifle shooting some 600mm out to the right at 100m, and the ordinary groups. I just hope to find that the action taken has cured it!
I've got the last edition of Jim Sweet's book but the later ones had info about No4 bedding and Omark bedding. Will try to hunt down an earlier edition.
BTW Bruce_in_Oz where do/how have you come by the wealth of information you possess on these things?

tbone:

I have been an "enthusiast" since I was a lad at school. Being surrounded by mechanically-minded family and friends helped a lot. My Dad was one of those blokes who, if he didn't have the right tool would set to and design and make one.

I have lost track of the hardware that has passed through my hands over the decades. However, as the gun-cupboard waxed and waned, the library just kept growing. The good thing about information is that you can pass it on without actually losing it. One of my prized document sets is a swag of Australian armourers charts, notes and oddments from the late 1930s. These, and every book of Ian Skennerton's and sundry other authors have been invaluable. As a high-school kid in Australia in the 1970's, I got to fiddle with everything from Martinis to L1A1s with a lot of Lee Enfields in the mix. I was trying to restore Lee Enfields at the same time as match-tweaking M-14s and AR-15s. Actually pulling the trigger on something that you have built or restored yourself is sometimes scary; you feel like a dill if it doesn't perform, but the whole point is to make it work the way it should. You also learn something if it doesn't. In the "wild old days" I used to buy powder in 32 pound "kegs" and projectiles by the slab. My kids don't have anything like the freedom to do the stuff I did then. My clothes used to hang on the end of the bed because the wardrobe was full of guns, magazines and spare parts. Neither of my parents minded; they just insisted that I be safety conscious whether handling, shooting, reloading or "repairing". The same went for my brother who has a similar bent, but also used to rebuild classic British motorbikes in his room.

Some years ago, I encountered another "old" armourer and acquired his swag of drawings and a couple of good technical specification sets. He wouldn't tell me much about his personal past, but he had obviously been fairly high in the food-chain. When I go to gun shows, I look at guns but almost never buy. Almost invariably, however, I will go home with books, parts, charts and a couple of new phone numbers or email addresses.

I have been involved in a couple of attempts at manufacture in Australia; absolute nightmare of bureaucracy, small-mindedness, technical brick walls and terminal cash shortages. I am doing the "backroom stuff" for a .303 barrel caper that is being run on a very threadbare shoestring at the moment, but I am not giving up yet. The first two P-14 barrels are going out to be "warmed up" by my shooting equivalent of "The Stig" this weekend, a whole year later than initially planned. That design exercise provided a deepening of the suspicion that P-14s seem to be hand-fitted from one end to the other. After doing a lot of metrology, it became apparent that it is futile to produce a barrel that is a "drop-in" as there is almost no chance that it will breech up correctly. Instead an "80%" barrel will have to be carefully fitted by a good gunsmith. But that's better than nothing. The latest mad caper is to find a reliable source of a Mk7 equivalent projectile whilst tidying up the specifications for an "almost" drop-in No4 barrel. Now, that’s scary.

Hi T Bone, just wondering how the shooting is going with the H barrel project?

Not good. I put it aside while I did another project. That was the No4Mk1/3, now that's done I'll get back to it, too many rifles apart at once means none get completed if you're me. Hopefully this week. I spoke to some guys who've had success with H barrel bedding, and I only need to make slight mod's to emulate their take on bedding.
Helpfully also I've got a range to use for the moment which makes testing.... possible.

Hey Tbone i wonder if there would be any of the old gun smiths still floating around who used to set up rifles at malabar, they were all over that with the heavy barrels, I seemed to have purchased quite a few of these rifles in the past which had been fitted by these gentlemen. It would only take a minor tweek here and there to get that performance you want. you can only but try. will be interested to see the end result.
Regards
Fergs

I've had a few too. I don't know anyone who has a dead set formula for "this is how you bed an "H" barrel SMLE to optimize accuracy". There is still a solid crowd who shoot them every week, and these guys ALL have one they got that shoots well, or through trial and error they worked up. Many of these "worked up" winners, use glass, or body filler as bedding compound at various points. For the sake of keeping my builds as "original" as possible, and to build my skill, I'm not using anything other than traditional methods, stuff how long it takes. These old school guys did it once upon a time, time and time again, and I'll be doing it, hopefully as well as them in the not too distant future... that's the plan anyway.

At the risk of being shunted to do a forum search lol, what was the bedding used during ww2 on ht's?, and or on the H rifles from a decade earlier ?

Scraped timber and cork.

sorry my mistake, bedding style used in ww2?

From EMEI WPN D 113, Issue 1, Sep 1976:

Stock Fore-end
23. The stock fore-end should fit on the rifle as follows:
a. Tightly between the sear lugs and the socket of the body.
b. With a good bearing on the body surfaces, along the narrow ledges on either side of the magazine opening for a distance of 1-1/2 inches from the front.
c. With a good bearing of the reinforce extending for the full length of its seating and about one third of the seating in width. The bearing should be central.
d. The fore-end is to be clear of the barrel.
e. If the standards detailed in sub-paragraphs 23a to d cannot be met, the rifle is to be classified ‘R’, for field repair.


See also page 15 of "Instructions for Armourers, 1931" available online from all good Lee Enfield forum sites.

Excerpt (standard bedding):

"The fore-end should seat on the base of the body, especially at the front end for 1 1/2 inches at least, on the barrel at the reinforce, and from half an inch in rear of the inner band recess in the nose cap. The guard screw-collar should bear on the boss of the body; and its outer end should be slightly below the guard seating (about .01 inch). The fore-end must be clear of the barrel from the front of the reinforce up to a point half an inch from the inner band recess; it should fit closely between the sear legs and the face of the butt socket of the body. Th einner band recess should be of sufficient depth to ensure that the inner band can be drawn down onto the barrel.

When the seatings and clearances are satisfactory, press the fore-end on the barrel and body, assemble the trigger-guard and screws, and test that the barrel is free and that it seats along the bottom of the groove without tension.

etc., etc.....Then:

Lubricate the barrel and body recess of the fore-end, the groove of the hand-guards and the barrel and body, with red mineral jelly.... Finally, assemble the fore-end of the rifle, seeing that the inner band spring is free to act , that the barrel can be sprung down fully at the muzzle against the tension of the stud and spring, and that the rear hand guard does not prevent the back sight slide from seating on the bed at the lower elevations."

As for the heavy barrel, the initial set-up specification is one of the many bits missing from my collection. Any lucky campers out there?

That reference: EMEI WPN D 113, Issue 1, Sep 1976. is for the "Rifle No 1 MK 3* HT .303 Inch", i.e. Australian SMLE sniper.

Note that these beasties were still in the system and being maintained in 1976. They were replaced not long after by the Parker Hale M82; that rifle itself superseded by the Accuracy International rifle.

And all of this assumes the use of standard Mk7 Ball of the best available quality. Change that loading and all bets are off.

I have a pretty good condition H barrel with rear sets already fitted courtesy of Roger in NZ. Looking for a suitable rifle to fit it to right now. I have one which was fulton regulated and the receiver is bedded REALLY well but the barrel is a bit rough. However the Charge bridge got bashed at one point and is unconnected on the left side of the receiver. this make me wonder if I should use this one as it will be more flexib le and might eb more prone to bending when removing the existing barrel.

I've read up on James Sweets book as he has a page on H bedding 'Principles of stocking up heavy barrels', page 63/4, and unusually compared to his otherwise straightforward dissurtions. it seems like he talks around the subject this time.

I've been able to glean ...
1) the front sight and the barrel protrusion must not contact the nose cap at any time, (open up the nose cap barrel hole)
2) the bottom of the barrel should rest firmly on the forend with a pressure of three pounds, (he doesn't say what portion of the barrel)
3) Usually there is cork packing between the top of the barrel and the front hand guard.

Additionally he diverts to discussing fully floated barrels versus fully stocked and he emphasizes a quote from a noted accuracy expert, Major-General Hatcher, who states, and paraphrasing here 'fully floating is good but even so best results are obtained with zero contact for the barrel length except for tip contact under the forend that creates 6-10 lbs up pressure.

something to ponder.
I have to do mine soon, hence the quest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RJW NZ

I've been able to glean ...
1) the front sight and the barrel protrusion must not contact the nose cap at any time, (open up the nose cap barrel hole)

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I keep a spare nose cap with a generous sized hole, which i use on any SMLE regardless of barrel type and used after checking the obvious, just to give me an idea if it is that, and saves openening up the original, like my own comercial SMLE No1 Mk 111, lovely rifle but couldnt hit a barn door with it at first, nose cap opened up and bush made, hits the bull at 600 no probs, ( not all the time but thats more to do with the person behind the rifle)

Interesting earlier thread about this too.

bedding the ol H barrel? Plus a bedding material Q

I would add a few things to check on an H bedded rifle that has a noticeable left or right hand shift in the group relative to a simple bore sighted expected zero:

1) Bolt lug fit. If one lug is not bearing or is just bearing by a small amount, the rifle will throw shots in the opposite direction. So if the left hand lug is not bearing enough, the front sight will have to pushed over to the left in the front sight base to compensate. The fix is to adjust the opposite bolt lug bearing until the group moves back in line with the bore sight zero. This step should not be done until the following defects are checked for:

2) Is the barrel mounted so that the bore line is true to the action body? If the threads or action body threads are not true or the rear of the chamber is not bearing on the full 300 degrees(less the extractor cut), then the barrel will shoot off of the expected zero. I have never seen a problem with this, but I have only looked at the rear chamber seat on 6 rifles, which is not a large sample size

3) Is the bolt head square relative to the bore line (i.e. a true 90 degrees relative to the center line of the bore)? If the bolt head is not square to the barrel bore line the rifle will throw rounds off of the bore sight zero.

4) Is the chamber concentric with the bore and action body? If the chamber is canted relative to either then the effect will be identical to having uneven bearing of the recoil lugs. I have seen some bad chambers that seem to be the result of over tightening the barrel to get correct vertical alignment.

Quickest way to check the last three issues is to look at the cases. If you put a fired case in a upside down die that is level and using a ball loaded caliper on a test surface, rotate the case in the die and see if the case head shows any run out, i.e. one part of the rim is higher than the other side by a few thousandths if it does one of the three issues above is a problem. If there is no run out or less than .001, then the chamber, action threads are not an issue. Note to check the run out in a test set up, use a new case as a zero gauge

If there is noticeable run-out do not despair, all is not lost. The first thing you should do is to apply the old Ed Horton trick of putting a small ring or spacer around the cases at the bottom to ensure when the action is close that the round of ammunition is held against the bolt face and true to the bore. Fire a few new cases and re-measure the case head run out. If the cases show no run-out then the problem is not the bolt head, it is with the chamber, or possibly the action body is bent.

All of the above assumes the barrel was correctly installed and indexed, and that the rear chamber of the barrel has a full 300 degrees of contact with the corresponding surface on the action body.

Frederick, it's my understanding that if the cases show runout it just means they were not sitting in the centre of the chamber when fired.(relatively speaking, the chamber is much bigger than the case! They all are!) Then no runout after being fired with the o ring will not show if the chamber is concentric to the bore or not, just that the rear of the chamber that the o ring centred it on is concentric with the chamber.

Do a quick test. Pull a projectile out of a NEW round without stretching the neck, or better still, piece of commercial unfired brass. Drop the case in the chamber and see how much it rattles around in there!

Headspace (for a rimmed case) is the distance between the rear of the chamber and the face of the bolt head. For the bolt to close, that space has to be greater than the rim thickness of the case. The case will sit in the bottom of the available space because it is the bottom edge of the chamber that is lifting the case on the face of the bolt against the resistance of going up under the extractor claw as it is chambered.
When the primer is struck, the striker "nails" the case in the position it was sitting, and the expansion of the case wall out to the chamber is restricted on the bottom because of the striker holding it. Have a good look at the primer indent. Often you will see there is a tiny extruded ridge on one side that will be opposite to the side which the case wall expanded. This shows the rear of the case tried to rise on the bolt face to allow the even expansion of the case walls to centre the case. The striker indent will be slightly off centre, and the ridge will be toward the centre.
I will see if I can successfully photograph this and add it here.

I have written all the above purely from my own experiences and study of the subject. I'm not saying I haven't missed some other relevant possibilities, so I am very welcoming of discussion on anything here.

Brad.

Brad,

It is always a pleasure to correspond with you.

First off, yes your point is valid, but if the headspace is a bit tight then the case will not show as much run-out without the use of a o-ring. On one of my Fulton regulated rifles without any o-ring at all the case has no run-out when fired. As the case wall is blown out at the bottom, I concluded that headspace was a wee bit tight and is maintaining the case alignment with the throat. I have not done an exhaustive study on this. In general I think you are correct though on most cases showing some run-out without the o-ring. Poorly written on my part, the point is there may be miss alignments that can be detected by examination of the fired cases.

As far as the lug engagement, I have seen this effect and have corrected it on service grade rifles. For some reason the two worst offenders were both Savage rifles with poor left hand lug bearing. That should be checked

The real point I was attempting to get at is that is that many assume that if there is a problem such as was seen with this rifle you look at the wood work and stock bearings. I think, in general that is true when you are dealing with a SMLE with a service weight barrel that was factory assembled. But when you are dealing with match rifles assembled from parts, the trueness of the action threads, barrel threads, degree of barrel thread to action body thread engagement, chamber concentricity, bearing surface engagement between the barrel and action body and how square the bolt face is relative with the bore line of the barrel all have to be considered. All of these fits matter. In the case of an extreme group shift off to one side or another, one of these fits is incorrect.

Don't think we're dealing with match rifles here. Even the heavy barrel SMLEs are still designed to hit minute of German as opposed to MoA and pretty much all of these are factory assembled and in original (or historical) configuration. No point having one if they're not.

Newcastle,

I have to disagree with you. No a heavy barrel SMLE will not go head to head against a M1903 at short range shooting "good" ball ammunition, but at long range correctly set up No 1 MK III might give the M1903 shooting ball ammuntion a run for its money at 800 through 1000 yards. Certainly in the 1930s, the target used by the SMLE in competition at long warge was smaller than that used by the M1903 rifle (36" v.s. 30").

They are not MOA guns, but 2 to 2.5 MOA guns with full power loads, which is not bad. Most shooters will find with the light weigth and low comb they are hard pressed to shoot the rifles up to their potential in matches, at least that is my personnel experince. With reduced loads one might even do a bit better, though I cannot say I have ever pursued that angle.

As far as setting up H barrel SMLE rifles, in the late 1990s you could still buy lithgow heavy barrels, new in the wrap. I bought three of them and still have one new, in the plastic wrap. Most of the heavy barrels guns in existance are privately set up examples for target shooting. Until the last 10 years they were not that uncommon in AUS and NZ, I personnelly imported quite a number at what woudl be seen even back then at low prices.

There's still plenty of heavy barrels around in Australia and I've come across quite a few still sealed and wrapped just in the last 6 months. You just have to pay big money to get them in most cases.

THE problems with the extant "H" barrels, and I have a couple of "new in the wrap" example, are several:

They were made for Mk7 ball and Mk7 ball only.

The rifling on the one I have "unbagged" is interesting: Lands are incredibly shiny, grooves show toolmarks typical of cut-rifled military barrels.

There is a slight "belling" in the last inch or so at the muzzle, possibly caused by over-zealous lapping (after ball-burnishing???). Pushing a lubricated soft lead slug through the barrel reveals slight variations in resistance. This slug (cast bullet), was sized to .312" and did not appear to be deforming to the full depth of the rifling grooves, as there were no striations visible that should have been picked up given the visible marks in the grooves.

There being five grooves, the usual internal measuring tools are of limited use. I might have to go mad (and into debt) and get a set of star gauges ground.

Thus, unless you have a good stash of Mk7 type projectiles, the chances of your bullets completely sealing the bore (and grooves) is fairly slim.

There are folk out there in bench-rest and exotica land who are experimenting with "bore-riding" projectiles machined solid from bronze alloys. Good luck to them, I say.

What would be nice is to have someone with more toys than me to fire some Mk7 ammo through a SMLE and into a (water??) trap that would catch the bullets with minimal distortion. Then measure them. Could be interesting. Then do the same with some .311 Sierra Match King or similar (even Mk8Z ) boat-tails: I'd reckon there might be a diameter difference at the tail end.

And about that little filler in the nose of the Mk7 bullet:

It is there to keep the weight down and thus the muzzle velocity up to what the engineers and ballisticians wanted. Replace it with pure lead and the tables go out the window. Change the ogive to a slinky VLD shape and not only do the tables go wonky, such a pointy bullet (but flat-based) would probably have "issues" with retention in the magazine and subsequent feeding therefrom. Make the jacket thicker and the bullets cost more, are harder to make in bulk and are more resistant to deformation by the rifling. Alloy the lead with something much lighter and several things happen:

You increase the hardness of the core and thus reduce its ability to expand and deform into the (mil-spec) rifling.
This centre of mass will shift and this will impact on precession behaviour down-range.

None of the above would be real problems if you were running a national ordnance system and were quite happy to modify all the rifles in the system to accommodate such ammo "improvements. After all, that is exactly what happened with the transition from Mk6 to Mk7 ammo just pre WW1. However, I suspect that even the best heeled collectors on this site don't have THAT many rifles nor would they consider such a plan for their historical artifacts.

I have found with the H barrel (as i got an unissued and unfired one; still in the grease) the bedding style that I have come across in trial and error, plus also discussing it with Lithgow and the armoury sector, is having the knoxs form touching and the nose cap also touching (around 4-6 pound of pressure on the barrel) with nothing else being in the way.
nose cap is also not drilled out.

manages to shoots 3"-4" groups at 200 yards, with 150 grain .310 projectiles all day, from both a cold barrel to a hot barrel with no issue, and no float with barrel warming up, so im pretty happy with it.
but like all SMLE shooters will agree with, is; find what works for your barrel, what works with one doesnt always mean it will work with all of them.

I believe that there were a number of H barrels that were sold late from the factory that were actually seconds. Still greased in the wrap but stored for years as they were out of spec. I had a new H barrel and it was on the maximum of tolerance and had very rough cutter marks. Looked like the apprentice had made it. Would not fire SMK174BT and needed MKVII projectiles to shoot. On the other hand I have a MLE shortened range rifle with a H barrel and it is so tight it shoots 7.62mm projectiles fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lithgow 41

I have found with the H barrel (as i got an unissued and unfired one; still in the grease) the bedding style that I have come across in trial and error, plus also discussing it with Lithgow and the armoury sector, is having the knoxs form touching and the nose cap also touching (around 4-6 pound of pressure on the barrel) with nothing else being in the way.
nose cap is also not drilled out.

manages to shoots 3"-4" groups at 200 yards, with 150 grain .310 projectiles all day, from both a cold barrel to a hot barrel with no issue, and no float with barrel warming up, so im pretty happy with it.
but like all SMLE shooters will agree with, is; find what works for your barrel, what works with one doesnt always mean it will work with all of them.

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There in lies the issue.... If you are using anything other than MkVII ball, all bets are off. Almost a century of trial and error and close scientific study (as close as technology permitted at the time anyway) around nodes and anti nodes of the H barrel was solely for the benefit of service ammunition.
You should be able to get those sort of figures from almost any decent H barrel bedded in almost any way imaginable simply through load development. Being able to say the POI does not change from cold to warm is a good achievement... but my favourite old sporter with fully floating barrel does that too, only with milsurp ammunition and achieves the same accuracy.

Here is what "old faithfull" looks like currently.... (it was always a D&T'd sporter and used to be .25cal... no collectable rifles were harmed in the creation of this beast. For those with weak stomachs, look away now)

Attachment 67917

Wow Son, where did you find that "tacticool" stock set and what sort of cost?

The 4th edition of James Sweet's 'Competitive Rifle Shooting', gives about five different methods of bedding the H barrel, including the Military one.
It also has an article showing the Nodal and Anti Nodal points of the barrel for Mk.VII ammunition, including overtone deflection.
Interesting reading for those with access to a copy.