Inland M1A1 serial # 194619

Inland M1A1 serial # 194619 Barrel date 1-43. Came from a dealer that was selling it for friend whose grandfather brought it back from the war (I know they all say that). Regardless if that is true or not this carbine had been hanging by the strap in a closet for a very long time untouched. It was much duller when I got it, not from rust but from light dust build.

I started thread on 3/24 WW2 repair Ordnance Depots in ETO and/or the PTO?
mainly for information on this carbine but also to understand what was done during the war in either theater to rebuild damage weapons and upgrades to current specs.

You will see in the photos on the left side of the stock is a stamp that looks like a rebuild stamp, but has different letters than in War Baby. It is not real clear; my best guess is either AHO, A110 or AIIO in a box. There is also a P in a box on the front of the grip. I am hoping this will be familiar to someone that can identify what it actually is.

I don’t doubt that it’s gone through a repair/upgrade of some sort with the changing of the rear sight, handguard (TN) and the bolt seems out range according to WB. If it has been through an arsenal rebuild wouldn’t the dogleg hammer been changed (no strikes on the rail from a type 3 hammer), replaced the type one trigger housing pin and removed the rest of the highwood. There is a knot at the lowest point where the piece of wood broke off.

This carbine is what it is! I believe it has been like this for a long time and will stay exactly as it is as long as it is in my possession. If it is a bring back that’s great. It’s a rebuild that’s fine too.

John



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Looks like a fine example of an unmolested M1A1. I agree,LEAVE IT AS IS. Great find.

A boxed AAHO is an Augusta Arsenal rebuild stamp. See Brophy p. 567. Looks like that could very well be another A to the left of the clear A. The complete barreled receiver could have been installed in that stock any time, by anybody. The scattered info I have seen on postwar rebuild programs shows rebuild contracts in the tens of thousands of units, not hundreds of thousands or millions where there would be a better chance at uniformity. Never seen a document that says "well, OK, we rebuilt the last carbine today." Plenty of Korean War video with early configured carbines appearing.

At the beginning of the Korean War Truman had cut the defense budget to the bone. We knowingly used defective bazooka rounds in outmoded bazookas we knew were ineffective against T-34's because we had nothing better to offer. The Korean War followed by the development of the Russian ICBM kicked off the Cold War and its large defense budgets. It was just a different world budget wise, so looking for patterns is tough.

[QUOTE=firstflabn;167282]A boxed AAHO is an Augusta Arsenal rebuild stamp. See Brophy p. 567. Looks like that could very well be another A to the left of the clear A. The complete barreled receiver could have been installed in that stock any time, by anybody. The scattered info I have seen on postwar rebuild programs shows rebuild contracts in the tens of thousands of units, not hundreds of thousands or millions where there would be a better chance at uniformity. Never seen a document that says "well, OK, we rebuilt the last carbine today." Plenty of Korean War video with early configured carbines appearing.

At the beginning of the Korean War Truman had cut the defense budget to the bone. We knowingly used defective bazooka rounds in outmoded bazookas we knew were ineffective against T-34's because we had nothing better to offer. The Korean War followed by the development of the Russian ICBM kicked off the Cold War and its large defense budgets. It was just a different world budget wise, so looking for patterns is tough.[/QUOT

Thanks for your response.

What is "Brophy p. 567" ?

I think the action and stock have been together for a long time it not always. If you look at the picture of the receiver upside down there is a shiny rub marks in front of the trigger housing lug, there is an impression on the bridge of the stock that matches that. Note both sides of the trigger housing there shiny rub marks at the rear that match with impressions in the stock as well. I think that would have been caused by long term use which also created the indents on the trigger housing from the type 1 pin spring.

Your carbine stock has been though at least one rebuild as firstflabn said at Augusta post war. The rear sight was changed most likely at the same time. Not all parts were upgraded during many of the early rebuilds but what ever carbine was in the M1A1 stock when it was rebuilt it was proof fired at Augusta and the P in the square box was stamped on the grip. The original factory proof P was in a circle on the rear of the stock or the left side of it. Over all you have a real nice early Inland in a nice M1A1 stock.

I'll switch sides now. Lots of anecdotal evidence of adjustable sights being installed on existing carbines during WWII. Besides the many anecdotes I have seen a document that shows the North Africa Theater (NATO - later to become MTO) in February '44 wanted to replace rear sights on a couple of hundred thousand carbines in their command. That obviously didn't happen, at least not in those quantities, but the point is the documentation still turns up to make us reconsider some opinions. It would be no embarrassment if a wartime sight replacement was performed on yours. For that matter, this WWII rear sight scenario could explain the handguard and bolt as well.

The transfer marks from metal to wood is good evidence, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen in civilian hands after stock replacment. 66 years is a long time. And Brophy is the author of a book on the '03 Springfield. He not only researched the period, he lived it. While his book pictures many arsenal rebuild stamps, the AAOH is only sketched, so we can't compare font. We still know very little about the postwar rebuild activities. I have an 03A3 with a Benecia Arsenal rebuild stamp on it (though with no doubt about it being a rebuild). That's kind of unusual too, so I understand the mental gymnastics involved in seeking info on an arsenal that didn't do alot of work on a particular type of weapon.

Very Nice, Its a Keeper

Adjustable sights were retrofitted to M1 carbines during the later parts of WWII, starting in about 44. But with the rebuild stamp, that would be post WWII. Carbines were not being rebuilt until post war, starting sometime in 1947 if I remember right. And I believe the first rebuild station was springfield armory. And most other armories following suit in the early 50's for korea. So that means the stock at least was in the US inventory until at least Post WWII time. Which is evidenced by the cartouche.

There were repairs done in theater, but they did not stamp any cartouches in the stock. Any rebuild cartouches were done in an armory in the US after 1947.

It might be a korean war bring back, but for sure the stock didn't leave until post WWII. But that doesn't mean it still isn't a nice rifle, just not a WWII bringback.

Also a good picture of the side of the pin in the front sight would help. It's hard to tell in the pics, but it looks like it has a type I band. But if you can see any evidence of that pin being removed on the front sight, then it most likely had a type III band, that someone removed the bayonet lug. Is there a type III band shadow on the stock, or barrel? Pics of those areas will help as well. Are there any stake marks on the rear sight? All the carbines I have seen that had the rear sight changed in theater, do not have stake marks, or very light ones. If it has deep crater marks, or what I call them, those were usually put on during rebuild at an armory. More pictures of the end of the stock, and front sight will tell us more what it is.

You are right in the fact, that most early parts were upgraded during rebuild. But I've seen highwood stocks with Red River Arsenal rebuild marks, which was an arsenal rebuild station during the early parts of Vietnam. So anything could happen on the way that goes. I saw dogleg hammers in cmp carbines. So it's anyone's guess.

But it is still a nice carbine, it is a post WWII rebuild, that is for certain. But to me that just means it has more history of serving our country. And that doesn't mean you should be any less proud of it. There aren't a lot of M1a1's floating around anymore. And many members on this site would love to have that. :)

Adjustable rear sights were not available on a large scale if at all for rebuilding in 1944 as the production of the adjustable rear sights were unable to keep up with demand just for new carbines. Right into the end of production Inland only had 1/3 of there production fitted with the adjustable rear sights and not all of Winchesters production had the adjustable rear sights.

As suggested by ”clpstevennorton” here are some additional pictures.

The front sight looks like it has not been removed, there is no shadow on the barrel from a type 3 band or any impressions on the nose of the stock from a wide band and the rear sight is staked.

The rest of the pictures are just to show the markings, etc. I can’t get a picture of the OI stamp on the bottom of the grip, but it is there. If there is something else anyone would like to see let me know.

I think this carbine has been tucked away for a long time and I am the first person outside of the veteran’s family to own it.

As a friend mentioned the other day it’s got that “Been there, done that” look.

John




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I think you are probably fine on the type I band. There are a few marks on the top of the stock, but looking at it, I think it's from not losening the band enough to get it to slide off. Which scarred the stock a little. From the side, there is no shadow on the stock for a type III. So you are good. The front sight pin does have a little depress on it. But I doubt it's been removed. Very well could be how the pin was made, or from the install. The band looks like a legitimate Inland WWII band, which is a good sign.

The rear sight was definetly put on at a Armory. Those stake marks are the ones that armorers put on. Why they felt the need to pound them so deep I don't know.

It's hard telling if the barreled receiver is original to the stock. It's anyone guess, and there is no known way to know. It very well might be, and a few parts were swapped when it went through the rebuild. As parts broke, like the top handguard, and the early bolts had a few problems. But it's anyone's guess. But the fact that so many parts are correct after a rebuild is a good sign. Many times carbines were just torn apart and adjustable sights and bayonet lugs were installed. Sometimes just the adjustable sight, as it appears in the case. Otherwise they were left all original, except for non-serviceable parts. But as I said it's anyone's guess.

My personal opinion, which isn't worth much. I feel it's probably the original Inland receiver group to the stock, with a few parts replaced during rebuild/inpsection. Everything looks pretty consistant in wear and finish. If nothing else it's been that way since rebuild. I would sincerly doubt it's a recent put together rifle. I believe it at least left service that way.

You will never know for sure what is original on it, but you still have a very desireable gun, that many people would give their left hand to own.

Welcome to the club by the way! They are very addictive. If you haven't got a jump holster yet, you should find one. They look great together. :thup:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...chard001-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cplstevennorton

There were repairs done in theater, but they did not stamp any cartouches in the stock. Any rebuild cartouches were done in an armory in the US after 1947.

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If an M1A1 stock had to be replaced in the field, where did the stock come from? Were there surplus "OI" Overton-Inland stocks available to armorers, or were "unmarked" replacement stocks on hand during World War II? I realize there were only about 140,000 M1A1s produced, but certainly many stocks were damaged and had to be replaced in the field. Where did these replacement stocks come from and were any of them stamped/marked?

I've never seen any info on M1a1 replacment stocks. In fact, I don't know if they made any as replacements. Someone who knows the history more might be able to comment on that.

My educated guess, which is about worthless as well, is if a M1a1 stock broke in Europe. It would have just been replaced with just a normal carbine stock, not the folding stock. The reason I think this was, the M1a1 was mostly for paratroopers. And mainly to fold up to jump with. Once a paratrooper was on the ground, there was no need for a folding stock.

But as I said, I don't know that question. But I just haven't heard of any replacments being made.

There were nearly the same amount of replacement stocks made as complete M1A1's. I believe CCNL 353 has a Rock-Ola that has a european combat history and is in a replacement M1A1 stock and came home from Europe that way. M1A1 stocks were replaced in the field. Also other units got M1A1's besides just the paratroopers.
Dave

Additional pictures added.

After reading the article titled MODIFICATION WORK ORDER (MWO) ORD B28-W2, M1A1 GRIP SCREW in the latest issue of the Carbine Club Newsletter #379 as well as conversation in a recent post I decided see which screw was in this stock. If you look back through this post you will notice there is a rebuild stamp on the left side and the high wood has been broken but was not removed during the rebuild. However, as can be seen in the pictures below the screw was not changed. It may or may not be due to the fact that the rebuild seems to have happened after the MWO cancel date 8 Nov 45.

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John

Thanks for the update. Somewhere around here I have an undated photo of a carbine 'disassembly line' at Augusta. The photo doesn't show any M1A1s, but I'm sure they would have been included.

The 1953 edition of TM9-1276 included the grip screw replacement requirement, so that could help put an end date on your stock rebuild stamp if the MWO had indeed been cancelled in '45. This TM references technical bulletins from 1949, 1950, and 1951. Would be interesting to see if the grip screw replacement is mentioned in any of them. No cancellation date is written on the other four carbine MWOs (1, 3, 4, & 5) from the same file at NARA.

This 1953 edition also contains the instruction to remove the highwood portion. Not sure if this is the first directive to perform that task.

I don't want to suggest the late '40s Ordnance Dept necessarily did anything consistently. With massive leftover heaps of materiel and deeply slashed budgets and manpower, haphazard would be the expected order of the day.

Carbines were rebuilt during the war. Perhaps there was no large-scale rebuild program for them until later, but repairs and updated parts were done at several levels of maintenance. The adjustable sight in question wears what's left of its original finish and retains traces of the original white paint in the sight markings so the carbine hasn't been refinished since it was installed, and the carbine finish also appears to be original. The sight is also the first version - milled, with the adjustable centering plate on the rear. I don't know what may have happened to it at Augusta, but it didn't get rebuilt. Maybe it was one of those 'in-out' deals where it didn't need anything.

The best I've been able to determine, the term 'rebuild' first appears in the 1953 TM. The process described therein includes a complete disassembly. That obviously didn't happen with this one. In my mind, Ordnance intended for 'rebuild' to include bringing the item completely up to current standards. Again, not the case here - especially when you consider that one of the three wartime domestic sources for the parts for MWO-1, -3, -4, and -5 was Augusta. If this carbine is factory original except for the rear sight, it's highly unlikely it passed thru Augusta during WWII.

At the risk of clutching onto the thin reed of anecdote (a sure sign of desperation): of the several accounts of wartime field replacement of rear sights in the ETO - performed by unit armorers - none mention anything about doing MWO-1 or -4 at the same time as -3. MWO-1 (where applicable) was at least as important as MWO-3 - and it didn't require any special tools (unlike when the rear sight was replaced by the book). As always with anecdote, this may ask a better question, but it can't provide an answer.

So, logically there's no way to differentiate between:

1) this metal with its WWII field replaced rear sight was matched up with an Augusta rebuild-marked stock by a later owner (military or civilian).

2) the carbine got its rear sight replaced in the field during WWII, stayed around during the occupation, and upon eventually returning home, got a quickie function check and stamping at Augusta when there was no need and no budget for a complete rebuild.

Augusta closed in '55, so who knows what might have happened during shutdown.

Always fun dissecting a gun for originality. A long shot if you have nothing better to do and would help in this case is if you know the dealer personally. Ask him if he can get the name of the Grandfather to look it up from the guy he got the gun from. Maybe he also served post war. That could answer some questions about the rebuild, and also clarify if the story was true that it was a bring home, Ray

I still don't like that 'AAHO' cartouche. I've never seen or heard of one on a carbine. But, with all the other factors to consider, I also think its legitimate.

John,
I thought that s/n looked close to one of my Inlands, that would be s/n 194,727. Thats about 108 guns later that day than yours. Cant comment on your stock, but I will say, most likely on your rebuild they did replace your safety from checkered to a plain faced type.