No4 Mk1 Cutaway (Skeleton) Action

I think I made a good buy yesterday at auction - A Sketeon No4 action, its grubby and looks like it has been overpainted but If I can find somehwere to get it sandblasted and re 'blued' it should be as new.

Any suggestions who to use ?

I've seen these go for 'silly money' but I think the price was reasonable.

It was interesting that the auctioneer (before the auction started) made an annoncement about this lot :

"I have spoken with the Proof House and the Pattern Room and various Police Forces and this item is NOT a firearm. Any skeleton action that has the SKN serial numbers was made by the manufacturer and has never been a 'firearm' it therefore does not need putting 'on ticket'. Any skeleton action that does not have the SKN number has been converted by MOD Armourers, the Gun Trade etc. and therefore has been a firearm. (Once a firearm, always a firearm !!!) and therefore they would be a section 1 firearm.
The only Police Force that will not accept the SKN ones as non-firearms is Yorkshire who insist they are scetion 1"

As a matter of interest, the decision regarding that was made with us here at Warminster with all the paperwork. But, all of the SKN rifles started their lives as 'rifles'. They were converted in the 50's by LIST and Co at Dagenham under a big Enfield factory contract programme. List also did the Bren Guns too. But it's good to know that another official Enfield can be collected. To be honest, I think that they form a great part of a collection.

As I understand it, again with guidance from here, the DP's will soon be classified similarly. Maybe they already are. Can EFD help here?

Interestingly, in the 70's, I skeletonised a full length No4, including wood, barrel sections, butt etc etc. In fact, to a far greater degree than the standard SKN rifles and after a few minutes representation my local Police firearms place took it off my licence. On that basis alone, prosecuting a 'real' SKN owner in the future was a lost cause

Given the barrel length of 9" found on these skeleton actions, SKN marked or not, they would be section 5 rather than section 1 as suggested by Yorkshire police!

So what are they worth? Which is more valuable a No1 or a No4. I ask as I have a No4 and have a line on a No1 but the owner has to look for the barrel as he took it off years ago?

Holy crap I just read a post by Peter Laidler about people like me I guess asking the value of something, my bad, but still would like to know what they are worth. I know what I paid and interested to see if the No1 is worth more or less.

I imported some to the USA several years ago and had /have to run them on paperwork as BATF&E consider them working firearms. The 9" barrels have to be replaced with 16" to make them legal for sale without being registered under NFA, (National Firearms Act), as "SBR" or short barreled rifles. I still have a couple left to finish.

I saw a couple of No.4 skeleton actions for sale at Beltring last year with deactivation certificates. Would the proof house have passed them 'as is', or would further deactivation work have to be carried out prior to certification?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

As a matter of interest, the decision regarding that was made with us here at Warminster with all the paperwork. But, all of the SKN rifles started their lives as 'rifles'. They were converted in the 50's by LIST and Co at Dagenham under a big Enfield factory contract programme. List also did the Bren Guns too. But it's good to know that another official Enfield can be collected. To be honest, I think that they form a great part of a collection.

As I understand it, again with guidance from here, the DP's will soon be classified similarly. Maybe they already are. Can EFD help here?

Interestingly, in the 70's, I skeletonised a full length No4, including wood, barrel sections, butt etc etc. In fact, to a far greater degree than the standard SKN rifles and after a few minutes representation my local Police firearms place took it off my licence. On that basis alone, prosecuting a 'real' SKN owner in the future was a lost cause

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Peter, I'm taking my L59 to the London Proof House any time now, (just to test your theory).

I'll buy you a beer if it works, if not..............................!

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

"I have spoken with the Proof House and the Pattern Room and various Police Forces and this item is NOT a firearm. Any skeleton action that has the SKN serial numbers was made by the manufacturer and has never been a 'firearm' it therefore does not need putting 'on ticket'. Any skeleton action that does not have the SKN number has been converted by MOD Armourers, the Gun Trade etc. and therefore has been a firearm. (Once a firearm, always a firearm !!!) and therefore they would be a section 1 firearm.
The only Police Force that will not accept the SKN ones as non-firearms is Yorkshire who insist they are scetion 1"

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Now bring on the SKN marked Brens!

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

It was interesting that the auctioneer (before the auction started) made an annoncement about this lot :

"I have spoken with the Proof House and the Pattern Room and various Police Forces and this item is NOT a firearm. Any skeleton action that has the SKN serial numbers was made by the manufacturer and has never been a 'firearm' it therefore does not need putting 'on ticket'. Any skeleton action that does not have the SKN number has been converted by MOD Armourers, the Gun Trade etc. and therefore has been a firearm. (Once a firearm, always a firearm !!!) and therefore they would be a section 1 firearm.
The only Police Force that will not accept the SKN ones as non-firearms is Yorkshire who insist they are scetion 1"

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The auctioneer was quite wrong then: many/most SKNs clearly bear remains of their original marks and are in no way any different to armourer-prepared skeletons.

The fact remains that any UK owner remains at risk of being charged with possession of a prohibited weapon (barrel length) and/or an unauthorised Section 1 firearm, as SKNs clearly do not meet old or current de-activation criteria. The only "safe" option is further deactivation, which Birmingham accept as a pinned chamber, slotted receiver ring & chamber, ground bolthead and cut firing pin.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

I saw a couple of No.4 skeleton actions for sale at Beltring last year with deactivation certificates. Would the proof house have passed them 'as is',

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The Proof House certainly shouldn't do that. The Primary Legislation (1988 Firearms Amendment Act) points to set of deactivation rules which the Proof Houses must stick to. Those rules are extremely prescriptive and neither Proof House can vary them.

I have to agree with Thunderbox. In my opinion, they are clearly Section 5. This is partly based on my having fired a No.4 Skeleton at school (it has to be admitted only with blank) by simply replacing the bolt with one out of a service Rifle.

Surely chaps........... if they are allowing them by virtue of the 'other means of deactivation' clause and using the 'bleedin' obvious' criteria, then maybe we should graciously accept what is being allowed/offered.

In other words....................................

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

As I understand it, again with guidance from here, the DP's will soon be classified similarly. Maybe they already are. Can EFD help here?

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What 'standard' of DP'ing is being discussed ?
In the worst/best case scenario isnt a DP a fully functioning rifle but with parts 'out of spec' ?
In other cases it could have anything from a 'clipped' striker to holes thru' the chamber/barrel and cuts thru' the action.

There must be some guidelines as to what a DP is.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

There must be some guidelines as to what a DP is.

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The problem Alan, is that the definition of "DP" has varied over the years and even between the Armed Services.

For example when I was in the CCF (which was a while ago) I remember that some local ACF units had some DP rifles which, as a Cadet Armourer, I took an interest. The only thing that appeared to have been done to them was clipped firing pins, some DP markings, and and white stripes with "DP" stencilled in black. Compare that to an L59 and you have all the variations between the two.

Let's stop what I'm going to call 'silliness..................' There is only one current DP spec and it is the L59A1, to the EMER specification. Nothing halfway, nothing inbetween. We're talking about the UK MoD spec L59 A1. Twist the tail of the lion, in this case, the Home Office or the Proof Master and they'll bite you back

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Let's stop what I'm going to call 'silliness..................' There is only one current DP spec and it is the L59A1, to the EMER specification. Nothing halfway, nothing inbetween. We're talking about the UK MoD spec L59 A1. Twist the tail of the lion, in this case, the Home Office or the Proof Master and they'll bite you back

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Peter - in the post I referred to there was no mention of the L59 (until 5 posts later) hence my question as to which level of DP was under discussion.

......in facAs a matter of interest, the decision regarding that was made with us here at Warminster with all the paperwork. But, all of the SKN rifles started their lives as 'rifles'. They were converted in the 50's by LIST and Co at Dagenham under a big Enfield factory contract programme. List also did the Bren Guns too. But it's good to know that another official Enfield can be collected. To be honest, I think that they form a great part of a collection.

As I understand it, again with guidance from here, the DP's will soon be classified similarly. Maybe they already are. Can EFD help heret that

".......

The only one that they'll accept is the UK MoD 'standard' that's done to the drawing spec. That's the L59

Interestingly, in the 70's, I skeletonised a full length No4, including wood, barrel sections, butt etc etc. In fact, to a far greater degree than the standard SKN rifles and after a few minutes representation my local Police firearms place took it off my licence. On that basis alone, prosecuting a 'real' SKN owner in the future was a lost cause[/QUOTE]

Some years ago I bought a fully skeletonised full length No4 as described above it only cost me £30 as it was being sold under section 1, it came with a plaque stateing "Rifle , .303 No 4 Mk1 (Skeletonized).
This rifle was the workhorse of the British Army from 1941 until about 1966. This particular rifle, number BN 13849, was made at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Maltby, Yorkshire during the summer of 1944.
It was one of 4,619,349 No 4 rifles made in Mk1,1*,1/2.1/3 and Mk2 versions at factories in Birmingham, Fazakerley, Maltby, Long Branch (Canada) and Chicopee Falls (USA)
Presented to RSM (WO 1) J Pettifar, Royal Fusiliers by the REME Armourers, With Thanks"
It is in immaculate condition and has been "Skeletonised" to a far greater degree the the standard SKN versions , the breech has been cut away to such an extent that it would be impossible to "pin" it as part of the deact regulations, however the bolt is untouched and could be used in another rifle to fire live rounds hence the section 1 clasification, If anyone is interested I will take some photo's of what I assume is a rather rare item.

Maybe you should sensitively/sensibly modify the bolt to deact status and ask the local police to take it off your FAC as being '...unable to be proofed and incapable of supporting...........' etc etc.

Many Officers and Sergeants messes had these and L1A1 rifles deactivated by their parent workshops to display on mess and office walls. Many were also presented to those retiring and no doubt your popular mans got the special treatment. Alas, many fell foul of the official deactivation rules