Hi,
Having today acquired my second example of an L4A1 magazine, (RSAF Enfield, 1959) I was wondering how these were issued in use? E.g. In an infantry section, who carried the magazines for the LMG and how many?
Thanks,
Mark
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Hi,
Having today acquired my second example of an L4A1 magazine, (RSAF Enfield, 1959) I was wondering how these were issued in use? E.g. In an infantry section, who carried the magazines for the LMG and how many?
Thanks,
Mark
Normally in Practice. It was mainly the gun Section Pair who's Mag Pouches had two mags per pouch (three per pouch if you could squeeze them in!) The rest of a mag box that contained a dozen. was distributed in the rest of the rifle section. Norm pratcice was one to two mags per riflemen each. You also have to remember, each rifleman needed his own ammo for his Own rifle, or SMG. To that end, SLR Mags or bandoliers were utilsed by the Section riflemen. It made it more difficult when the SLR was in Service. Because the riflemen needed the slr mags themselves & they took up a lot of room in the ammo pouches. So basically, anywhere a 30 round mag could be carried was the norm. Inside a smock, in a small pack, in the poncho roll on the rear of the webbing. In an emergency, SLR mags COULD be used instead of the 30 rounders. It has to be remembered. lots of full mags along with all the other equipment carried on a patrol is very heavy & fatiguing. In the days of the .303" round, it was easier, as the riflemen could carry loose clips of five rounds in one pouch, & a bandolier or two over each shoulder & accross the chest. There were canvas six mag carrier bags for the Brens also. But even six full mags one handload, WAS tireing to carry over long distances!
If you were vehicle borne, then a full metal mag box of 12 mags wasnt an issue! The vehicle carried the load & it would have been very rare to use up all 12 mags when firing from a vehicle!
Also remember, what the manual/ book says, is VERY different from how it was done for real in the field! = Peter, can you add anything to this?...........:D
1959 was the first year of production so a nice find there.
Thanks. Interesting. I shall have to dig out my other one and check the date on it. Yesterday's one was £25 at the Chelmsford militaria fair. At some point it has acquired a coat of satin black paint - is this likely to be an official addition?
Going OT: Amongst other odds and ends I also acquired a good example of an olive green Pattern 1960 combat smock in a wearable size. (Just...) Did any forumites reading this wear one of these for real? ;)
Yep, I was issued with the green original combat smocks. We had them until I went to Australia in 1967 but when I came back in 1970 they'd changed to camouflage but there were still a few of the original ones in use. They were made of a material called 'sateen' at the 'ladybird' factory in Belfast. But I think it burned down - or someone burned it down! It was about the same time that we got 'woolie pullies' issued. Which was odd really because we'd had them in NZ for years! We also still had battledress trousers up until the early/mid 70's I still had a brand new pair of those sateen combat trousers until a year ago and put them on 'that' site.
What LMG magazine were you referring to. The L4A1 GUN magazine that has a small knib at the front that fits into the L4A1 and the FN or the L4A2 GUN magazine with a big block at the front, that's interchangeable with the L1A1 rifle mag.
I think Mark is referering to the commonwealth locking lug magazine marked - Magazine 7.62mm L4A1 9600089.
Scale of issue of magazine from a 1961 CES -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/04/CES-1.jpg
A guide from 1968 Infantry Training Vol 1,pam 6 -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...llatarms-1.jpg
KG
Great stuff as ever Kevin.:thup:
I don't suppose you'd have a picture handy of an L4A1 magazine box? I don't think I've ever seen one.
---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------
My one was made by James Smith & Co of Derby. I looked them up and apparently they were a big uniform manufacturer back in the day. Now sadly long gone to British manufacturing sector heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------
Oh dear. I have two magazines, so it looks like I need a Pattern 1958 mag pouch to put them in. Damn this collecting kleptomania!:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
I just bought a very nice L4 magazine box. I was tickled to finally get one to go with the L4A3. I'll shoot some photos of it to post if Kevin doesn't beat me too it.
UK early conversion of 303 mag box for 7.62 magazines by the addition of timber packing blocks.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/earluk-1.jpg
UK purpose made 7.62 magazine box with metal channel packing blocks with neoprene strips.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../04/uklt-1.jpg
Indian purpose made 7.62 mag box to their own pattern.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/04/ind-1.jpg
Hope this helps,KG
Here is one I picked up. Any idea about the art work?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mags_001-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mags_002-1.jpg
Looks like a Unit Vehicle Transfer (Decal) for the Wessex Regiment. (Infantry) & possibly the Royal Wessex Yeomanry (Territorial Army Reserve) Like the US National Guard.
Unusual to see that as normaly boxes were not Unit Personalised like this. The TA are a lot more Leiniant with 'The Rules' that most regular Line Regiments! The Boxes themselves are not rare over here in the UK.
That is a 'WYVERN' It is the divisional sign of the 43rd Wessex Division. As Tankie says, that is the division created for and made up from all of the reserves from the west Country. Somerset, Devonshire, Dorsetshire, Cornwall etc etc
As a matter of interest/correctness KG. The official modification acording to the EMER to convert the Bren mag boxes to L4 mag boxes there was no wooden rubbing strip on the front of the box. The top wooden strip, inside the lid, was sat ON TOP of the punched-in strip that would have held the horsehair pad. The little strip with the claws that holds the horsehair was pulled out (it was only spot rivetted and came out quite easily when rolled out using the armourers pincers). Then the wood packing piece, about 1" deep x .6" wide was screwed on with two round head No8 screws through two holes drilled through the punched down strip.
I/we did about 80 of them when our old Mk3 Brens were replaced with L4A2's in 1966. My boss at the time, Stan 'the man' Etchells had to pass comment on the modification so that it could be finalised and published as a finalised EMER.
I forgot to say that the original modification instruction stated that you had to re-use the old horsehair rubbing strip by glueing it to the new strip of wood. Alas, they were so old and tatty by then that this was a waste of time so we used new horsehair matting, tacked to the new woiod batten.
There, that's another bit of Bren history..................
Back to the Wyvern tactical recognition sign for a minute............ That is the 43rd Wessex Divison equivalent of my left side logo. The vehicle marking of the 6th Armoured Division
Peter,you mention that no wooden rubbing strip was used on the front of the magazine box. Could you give details of what was used ?
Many thanks KG
In a word, nothing. The only wood strip was in the top of the lid. I don't have the EMER handy unless Skippy, Tankie or Son has one handy. If the L4 mags were a bit of a loose fit, I don't think it ever affected them.
Oh,I thought you ment that another material was used instead of timber rather than nothing at all.
With no front rubbing strip on the front of the box the magazines can end up in a heap when the box is lifted by the handle as they are too short to positivly locate in the dividers.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...011/04/3-1.jpg
The problem is even worse on the shorter X3E1/L3 mag's with the FAL locking lug for the
L4A1 LMG (top in pic).
I have details of the factory conversion of 303 mag boxes to 7.62 boxes but these are for sheet metal parts.
Any chance of digging out any EMER info on the timber conversions ? Where these just a 'local' conversion ?
Many thanks KG
That's a very intersting observation KG and it's got me thinking. Now I'll definately have to get the EMER out now. Wait out. The modificatioon was officially sanctioned as an 'X' mod meaning that it was to be done at Unit level. The modification to the spare parts wallet was a 'Y' repair that had to be done at a Field workshop who had the necessary heavy duty machine to sew the pockets in
As well as modifying about 80 of these boxes, I oversaw the destruction of thousands of them and the magazines!
.......and I always 'used' to think what a nice bloke you were :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I will be sorting through a few hundred 7.62 mag boxes soon,I will try and make a note of any variations / modifications.
ATB KG
Kev,
The LMG mags were placed inside their respective boxes 180 Degrees the opposite way from from a .303" Bren Mag.
There is (Or SHOULD be) a 'U' section or Top Hat sheet steel bracket spot welded inside the lid.
THIS keeps the mags pretty well in place in the container.
of course, the bren mag being more curved & stowed Spine upwards against the lid kept THEM in place in the brackets.
I note your observation on the mag box appearing too long for LMG mags without a rubbing strip is well founded.
It DOES indeed look in your box as though it needs a strip to push the mags positively into the end brackets in place.
I can only sumise that if some of the mags didnt seat properly in THIS box. They would not move far, as the Top Hat section would prevent some movement & the other mags in the box would also stop latteral movement too far.
In use, the mags would have been returned into the boxes when empty anyway.
When on Patrol, the mag box would NOT have been carried by Personel on Foot. So I guess they never really thought about it much in the beginning. But, later on as this was discovered & in E.M.E.Rs as things needed 'Tidying up' so to speak. The extra rubbing strips were added to give positive retention. I have to add, that EVERY box I ever encountered. DID, indeed have all strips & brackets in place. So it was obviously a needed mod in all boxes later in Service use, In the British Army. What other Commonwealth Nations did, I am not sure. But the general trend was to copy what we did with our equipment. BUT, this did not alwas follow that trend in Practice! :banghead:
Just a small point Tankie but they are placed in the box in the same orientation.Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
303 and 7.62 LMG mags can only be placed located in the brackets inside the boxes the same way, with the mouth of the magazine facing the hinge of the box.The exception being the early X3E1 magazines with inward bottom plate retaining lips which allows it to be placed either way round.
The inside lid top rubbing strip as you say does prevent some movement but will not stop them becoming dislodged.
The necessity for a front rubbing strip to the early converted 7.62 boxes by whatever material means to keep them in check must have been taken into account as there were 2 different types of early boxes.One for the shorter FAL locking lug X3E1/L3 mags and another for the later commonwealth locking lug L4A1 mags.I would assume the differences in the boxes was the depth of the front rubbing strip to take into account the difference in the length of the magazines.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../l4boxes-1.jpg
ATB KG
Kev, Do you mean mags are placed in THIS particular box in the same orientation?
Because a NORMAL LMG Mag Tran box has, as I stated. & Top Hat U section spot welded inside the lid. This would make it Impossible to insert Bren .303" mags in correctly.
My Bren Mags sit spine upwards in the box. & the 7.62mm LMGs lay spine downwards.
Just clarification if it's YOUR Particular variantion of trans box that would allow the annomaly! :thup:
T.H. the pic below was just to illustrate how much slack there is in a 303 mag box if converted without a front rubbing strip when a 7.62 mag is placed in it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...011/04/3-1.jpg
The pic is of a normal 303 mag box so I didn't have to dissasemble the converted 7.62 mag box with the wooden rubbing strips to the front and top of lid (pic below) to illustrate the point.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4/earluk-1.jpg
Just for clarrification L4A1 7.62 LMG magazines will only fit in either the converted box above or the factory made box (below) with the mouth of the magazine facing the hinge and the spine up (the same orientation as a 303 magazine) Trying to fit one spine down in a converted box with timber rubbing strips it wil not go in all the way and on the new made box 7.62 mag box it will not go in at all.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../04/uklt-1.jpg
Not sure why I would want to try and fit a 303 mag in a 7.62 LMG mag box ? I think there may be a bit of confusion on this ?
ATB KG
While were talking about magazine boxes. Has anyone ever seen a box marked :-
BOX, MAGAZINE, 7.62 MM. RIFLE, MK. 1
1005-99-960-0794
In theory it should be a narrow version of the L4A1 12 magazine box?
Nice pictures Kev! After our conversation on the Phone last night. I will dig out one of each of my Bren & LMG L4 Mag Boxes & clarify with 'Hands on', so to speak! I will post my findings here for all to see.
I cant believe that something so small can turn out to be such a Huge Conglomeration of Variants! This could turn out to be a subject all on it's own! Lol. When you think about the Many countries & thier respective versions of Mag boxes, & add to this conversions, Mod's Etc. You could almost form a collection of Mag boxes on thier Own! :thup:
Peter will confirm this I know. If you think about the Hundereds of Thosands of Magazines in Service At any one time. The Unit/Circuit Armourer on His Inspections should have in theory inspected them all. The Reality was different! Each Units holdings of Weapons, Tripods, Appurtences & Associtaed Equipment was VAST at EACH unit level. The Weapons Naturally were of the Top Priority. The Mags, well....They were just Mags & there HUNDEREDS at EACH Unit! Add to this all the RIFLE Mags as well, & you can imagine the MOUNTAIN of inspection work potentially! Total: = THOUSANDS! The Armourer didnt have time or Truthfully, didnt want to spare his time on Boring old magazines!! So it was the practice that if a Mag was returned to the Armoury & reported as Defective. The were put in a Box & this was taken to the Armourers Workshop generally on a Monthly basis. Occasionally, a Defective Mag would rear it's head on live firing on Range days & be bought over to the Armourer between a detail firing.
Sometimes they could be repaired, sometimes written off & a replacment indented for. Add to that, the fact that MOST LMG Boxes werent touched at all. You can imagine it was ENTIRELY Possible for things to get missed or not Modified as required. This is how annomalies DO turn up occasionaly. I am sure my box is one of them, it 'Originated' from a 'Certain Unit' that is VERY covert & does NOT open it's Portals to simply 'Anyone'! As this Source very rarely would want any extra weight or unessacary bulk Etc to be taken on 'Opperations'. It is ENTIRELY Possible that this specimin may be one that has been missed. Or 'Obtained' from an Unknown Source 'Somewhere down the Line'!....
They are a Law unto themselves pretty much most of the time & 'The Rules' That SHOULD apply to all. DONT always get followed by 'Them'!..Lol.
Querie solved........... The EMER, E348 modification instruction dated 1965 shows the box modified SIMILAR to KG's second picture above but with the wood batten strip sat on top of the punched rib (shown, same pic. above, covered in a horsehair strip) Then the horsehair strip glued onto the wooden batten that acts as a spacer for the less curved L4 magazine.
There is indeed another wood batten that acts as a spacer, exactly as shown in the same pic to retain the new magazines within the spaces each bit of 'locally sourced hardwood' was retained in place by two No8 roundheaded 3/4" woodscrews obtainable from Ordnance stocks.
That is the modification at UNIT level At Base workshop level, new pressed steel inserts will be spot welded in place as per the bottom photo and then the box is sent through the system and comes out looking like brand new - as per the box shown. As I said, problem solved but you can imagine what it's like being equipped with a regiments worth of new L4 Brens and magazines, only to be told that you've got to modify all of your existing BREN magazine boxes to take the flatter L4 magazines. THEN, all of the spare parts walllets have got to be withdrawn so that they can be modified to hold the new 4 piece cleaning rods! Phew!
A thought just occurred to me whilst looking at these pictures of mag boxes - going by some prices I've seen lately, it could cost you the best part of £500 to completely fill one with L4A1 magazines...
IF you can find that many! Ha Ha!Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
Approx £500 to fill a magazine box up with common-as-muck L4 magazines.................. Just how much are they valued at then? How much is a whole box of still wrapped new ones valued at too..............................
Peter, at todays rates on the 'Circuit' standard L4 mags are £25 approx NORMALLY! I have seen them priced higher, but they are still on the tables at THAT price! I know where there are a small quantity at £22 each, but that is a Dealer price, NOT available to Joe Public at that Price!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Here in NZ L4A1 and the 30 round mags for the L2A1 Rifle sell for around NZD$150 each !!!! :runaway:
Bren Gun Magazine chest modified and used for twelve 30 round L2A1 Rifle magazines.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ineChest-1.jpg
As an aside to the conversion of 303 mag boxes for 7.62 magazines I have just spotted a remark in the L4A6 CES (1961) in regard to this which is quite interesting.
It states that until the new magazine box is available (item -960-0254) a 303 magazine box should be used with "cotton waste or rags as packing inside the box magazine Bren,to prevent damage to the new pattern magazines."
Looks like this workround is going to save me allot of effort in displaying my 7.62 X3 series FAL locking lug magazines properly until I find the correct mag box.:D
ATB KG
Hi all,Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
I have a box very similar to the ones in photos writing reads "Box,Magazine 7.62mm M.G".
My question is simply, what is the seal made of? Just to clarify, I mean the seal around the edge of the box. Is it Asbestos?
Any information you could share on this is appreciated (sorry for bumping such an old thread).
Horsehair matting
Thanks, you've put my mind to rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Not to hijack the thread, but when I picked up my semi-auto MkII from Len Savage I asked about spare mags. He took me to a warehouse where he had a line of pallets covered with tarps. He threw back the tarp exposing a four foot high pallet full of boxes. I chose 4 at $60 each. Upon inspection, they had various manufacturers of magazines in each and the boxes and mags were heavily coated with grease (cosmoline?). I spent an afternoon in the driveway cleaning one box of mags. The other three can be cleaned by my heirs.
7.62mm magazines or .303" magazines Gopher?
I f you still use the forum, any chance of some photos of the inside, the Wording "Box, Magazine 7.62mm M.G." matches the wording of a X3E1 Mag box I just gave to Kev G. A normal mag box for L4A1 mags would say "Box, Magazine 7.62mm M.G. Mk3"Quote:
Originally Posted by boxmagazine7.62mm
Peter, They were .303 magazines.
A guy I shoot with had Len build him one in .303 also and elected to go with the optional 8 x 56R and 7.62 x 54R barrel, bolt and magazine.
$60 each?? That's an excellent price for 7.62 magazines but extreme for .303 mags.
Maybe it was high, I had no base to judge from. However, I didn't think $5.00 per mag was bad since the carrier box was included.
Got it. Four full boxes at $60 each. Nothing wrong with that. $5 each is about the going rate for .303 Bren mags.