Longbranch TP Sniper. Comments anyone?

Picked this up a few days ago. A Longbranch Trade Pattern sniper with a Lyman Alaskan scope.
It was advertised as a reproduction, and I knew it was. Nonetheless, it is a beautiful rifle and I am happy that I purchased it. Questions is, would this type of serial# alteration ever be performed at manufacture or at depot level service? I only question the forgery issue due to the care and, dare I say, skill it took to perform this type of work. If so, I wondered if it paid off? BTW if anyone owns a LB with this serial # PLEASE give me a shout ;)

Ian

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2940-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2941-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2943-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2945-1.jpg

What makes you think the serial number has been messed with? There are 4 different fonts that LB used, that I have on file. This one looks OK to me.

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

How about some wide angle shots?

Looks like the original serial number was welded over and a new one stamped. Very good job as the font and size looks correct. How is the scope marked? Ron

That 4 looks like a pretty good match to me.

Check the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here).

There's an "all correct" example along with an excellent additional 197 pic photo montage of a .....

1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T) Long Branch TP Sniper Rifle Serial # 74L0318 (click here)
(Mfg by Long Branch Arsenal, Leaside, Ontario, Canada)
c/w matching Telescopic, Sighting C No.32, Mk.I(TP) (Trade Pattern)
Scope Serial # 4392S (Mfg by Lyman-Alaskan)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02640.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02651.JPG

Read the article extract by "Clive Law" and using the photo montage, compare the correctness of components and markings to the one you picked up.

Quote:

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The sights were marked and numbered in the commercial range and the military designation was not shown. The approximate range of serial numbers is believed to be between 4340S and 4690S. The range is based upon observation only as no records have survived. It is the author's belief that these were originally mounted on a block of No.4(T) rifles numbered from 740001 to 74L0350. Most of the scopes also display the British "Broad Arrow" Ordnance mark. This may have been applied at Lyman on their own initiative when they saw the order was for the Canadian army - however this is purely speculative. The contract between the Department of Munitions and Supply and the Lyman Gunsight Corp., did not call for any special markings to be applied.

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I don't see in your first photograph, any other markings below the serial number such as a letter and number ie: H31. Is there something stamped there that isn't shown in your photo because of the angle it's take at? :confused:

Do you have more pics of the rifle you can share with us?

Hope that helps ... :thup:

Regards,
Doug

rgg 7 has it. The pics of the inside show the raw weld bead. it was definitely re-numbered at some point and this took drilling out and putting a spot of weld material in the void and then re-stamping. The font is a bit different on the "7" "4" and "L". I will post full size pics in a few days, but just wanted to focus on the serial number change for now.

Ian

Badger,
I did see that wonderful example. Did get a lot of info from that article. Many thnx.

rgg 7
The scope is marked with an "in the range" serial number, but does not have it stamped on the adjustment turret base. ?? The upper mount is numbered with the rifle serial# but the lower seems to be a reproduction as it has no markings. Strange beastie this TP.

Anytime one sees file or sanding marks in the area of the serial number on a LB receiver, one must suspect that the serial is non-original.

To my knowledge, that type of renumbering was not done in the Cdn ordnance branch. By the book, if a rifle was to be renumbered or a receiver salvaged and recycled, the serial number would be barred out (not obliterated) and the new serial number placed nearby. By the book, if the serial number on a weapon showed signs of tampering, the weapon would be back loaded to third line for investigation.

I have seen examples of various rifles and smgC1s with the proper barring out of the numbers as I have described above. One exception to this would be the thousand or so Cno7 receivers that had the serials scrubbed and placed in stock after being salvaged from Cno7 rifles.

Almost surprising that someone would go to all the trouble of trying to fake up a TP rifle, and not take the time to take a rotary file to the blob of weld on the inside of the wrist.

ATF does take a dim view of altered serial numbers, BTW.

If you can prove that was the S/N otherwise, they might let it slide, BUT...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stencollector

Almost surprising that someone would go to all the trouble of trying to fake up a TP rifle, and not take the time to take a rotary file to the blob of weld on the inside of the wrist.

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Guess it was easier to notch the buttstock after all that fine work and not count on anyone going inside for a look....like me.

Gauging from the size of the weld, it looks like the 74L was drilled out and refilled with weld the restamped. ANY place takes a dim view of monkeying with serial numbers: US, or anywhere.....
A small lot of the scopes hit the market in Canada during the late 60's and very early 70's and just disappeared into the woodwork. A lot of around 50 to 75 No. 32 scopes also appeared just after and they also disappeared. The 32TP's had the mount and there were some bases however the 32's were just the scopes. The No.32's came from Wainwright Alberta....The 32TP's came out of eastern Canada.

Why would someone drill completely through the receiver just to change a number? If I wanted to fit a PH5A sight on the thing that's just about where I'd make a hole, though.

What is even more interesting is that, as far as I can see, the # on the bolt handle looks to be original. My eyes may be getting old....

I too think that this is a repair from the fitting of a PH5a, or SMLE central mount. Heaps of rifles have this mod, and the spot is perfect, as is the type of damage to the butt in the socket. I've got a maltby with the tapped hole removing the same digit. Could this be simply someone repairing the damage caused by the fitting of a less than ideal range sight? BTW nice job.

PS is the barrel serialised the same?

I broke her down before I left for work tonight. No serial# on the barrel, but plenty of Canadian/LB marks. I am going to put together an album of all the markings, there are some that I am curious about, and post a link to them after I get up tomorrow.

Thnx for all the feedback

I.

Second the Centrail sight base idea.

On the other hand, the hole looks a trifle too far towards the muzzle side of the butt socket. However, if fakery was the intention, what would be gained from changing the "...4L..."? Nothing as far as I can see.

Also if fakery was the intention you would expect the lump of weld on the inside of the socket to be removed.

The damage to the back edge of the forened just above the tieplate might correspond to a Central base as well.

Took a bunch of photos. Hopefully this link will work. Enjoy.

http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...20TP%20Sniper/

The one photograph you did not show is one of the scope elevation turret. If the scope is kosher it will have a number starting with a 4 and ending with the letter S. The rear sight is correct for a sniper with the "Maltese cross" on it and the markings seem good from what I can see at a quick glance. The only fly in the ointment with the serial number, as I mentioned in a previous post is the 74L are not the same as the numbers following the prefix. A most interesting rifle and while the scope and rifle may not be one unit they both seem kosher but as to when and how they came together is a mystery. I do know that some were made up by the military well after the war, so take it from there.......
This is the second one like this to surface in the last while......

Good catch W. The scope, numbered 4498S, falls into the correct batch for a TP, but there are no markings at all on any of the turrets. Not even the "All-Weather" found on the commercial variants. Here is your pic.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3026-1.jpg

Ian

The scope if numbered on the elevation turret, left side is a good one. A genuine Canadian purchase 32TP and not just a Lyman Alaskan as some have turned out to be.
The 32TP did not have ALL WEATHER on it.

Where is your scope numbered 4498S ???

Just to the right of the "ALASKAN" on the scope, as shown in the pics. The numbers are canted at an upward angle and are of smaller, different font. The pic is dark so here is another..
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3034-1.jpg

Besides the "all correct" example of a 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T) Long Branch TP Sniper Rifle Serial # 74L0318 (click here) in the Knowledge Library, mentioned earlier, my wife has an authentic Long Branch TP (Trade Pattern) scope Serial #4411s (not far off yours) mounted on "put together" (done about 25-30 years ago) 1943 No.4 Mk1* Enfield (.303) Rifle Serial # #55C7424 (click here)

Here's some pics of the scope extracted from the 191 pic photo montage …. ;)

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02507.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02512.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02601.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02604.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02606.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSC02608.JPG

Regards,
Doug

the plot really does thicken ....hmmm, gotta have two fingers of single malt and postulate on this one!!!!
The number is seems outside of the know lot....... just another hypothesis...more scotch!!! as the plot does really thicken now!!!

Aye to the single malt.....I guess this one would throw Clive Laws' approx. numbers of 4340S to 4690S for the Lyman Scopes issued, out the proverbial door? My only guess would be that the scope turret was damaged/replaced for some reason and hence no markings.

I am considering getting it engraved on, but somehow I feel like this will take something away from the whole story..

Time for a re-fill.

I've had three or four of these sights within the known serial number range apart and you would NEVER get away with stamping the number on the tube (as in pic top left, this page and as sown on p2) without serious internal damage. So the tube was stripped down and stamped over a mandrill regardless of its provenance. One I saw did have the same number stamped and NOT engraved on the turret housing though. Done well, but definately stamped as opposed to engraved.

If it made it all this length of time w/o the number in the usual spot, why ruin it now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

One I saw did have the same number stamped and NOT engraved on the turret housing though.

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Are you saying the same number as my scope? This could be interesting.

I didn't say or imply that Ick............ What I said was that one of the Lyman telescopes I overhauled had it's serial number stamped on the tube as per usual and instead of the same number being engraved on the turret housing, as they usually are, this one was stamped with number/letter stamps. But stamp it too hard and it'll damage the turret housing.

I'd like to think that the two serial numbers on the Lymans, and it's only me thinking out aloud, were that the small stamped number was put there at the Lyman works prior to assembly as their serial number (or the number range allocated by the purchaser). While the larger number on the turret housing was engraved there at Long Branch due to the fact that the small Lyman tube number would be too small to be considered for accounting/checking purposes. The left side of the turret housing was a convenient flat face and once bolted into its bracket, could be engraved at the same time as the rifle number (bracket). A rapid change of the panto setting and numbers and you can engrave the larger telescope serial number in a matter of seconds. Thereafter, both numbers are on the same plane. Just my thoughts out loud

Thnx for the clarification Peter.

I.

Member advisory ... :)

This item is now up for private sale by the owner in the Quartermaster Stores.... :thup:

1944 Longbranch Trade Pattern Sniper (click here).

Regards,
Doug

Thnx for the bump Doug. For what its worth, I believe she's legit..starting to feel pre- sellers remorse.

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ickmann

..starting to feel pre- sellers remorse.

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Then sell something else! I've been in the "selling suff to get other stuff" mode for a while now. The worst being having to come up with $4000 quick for a scope. That put a hurtin' on the trading fodder.

Called and PM'd to buy this, made arrangements to have it shipped to a US address and contacted a broker to import, no response from the seller

Response was made sir. Please clean up your replies. Thank you.

Thread closed... :thup:

Regards,
Doug