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Hi guys, I want to modify a butt to fit a wrist that it doesn't fit presently.
Here's a pic of the two types.
I want to go from the more round one to the one with one square shoulder on top.
I've heard Peter Laidler refer to this in passing, but if someone could show some pics of a repaired/modified one, or even describe how it's done I'd love it.
I need to do it so I can fit a normal length butt to a rifle I'm rebuilding, and this butt is the closest match to the rest of the set.
Cheers.
From the old Jouster Forum :
BUTTS, fitting new or refitting old...
Posted By: Peter Laidler
Date: Wed 2 Jan 2008 9:52 am
The BUTT. On the face of it, it’s a simple enough job. Just unscrew the old and bash the new one on and screw it up. But that’s JUST what you might do ….., screw it up! If you have a look inside the but socket of the rifle, you’ll see that it is actually tapered and it’s tapered for a good reason. That being to keep the butt TIGHT. All new butts are slightly oversize at the butt socket and what we do is to fit the front end into the butt socket and tap the rear end of the butt, where the heel and toe butt plate screw holes are, with a rawhide mallet so that you start to see witness marks from the rifle butt socket. Then with a rasp or coarse file, rasp away GENTLY until the butt starts to fit into the taper of the butt socket. Keep doing this and you’ll visibly see it going further into the butt socket. Ideally (but certainly on a grenade launching EY rifle), with a last tap of the rawhide mallet the butt should bottom out into the underside of the socket. It should be horizontal to the rifle.
Now for the important bit. The wooden shoulder of the butt, the part that sits proud of the butt socket, MUST be clear of the butt socket and there should be a gap of about 2mm between that edge and the actual butt socket. Have you got that? There MUST be a gap of about 2mm between the steel butt socket and the butt. If there isn’t a gap, then you can be sure that a sliver of wood WILL break away. The butt MUST be tight in the socket and in an ideal world, according to the REME Armourers bible, the wood of the butt MUST (but in civilian circles, should) be proud of the socket by approx 1/16” and the edges should be crisp and sharp. Now, remove the butt and slap on a xxxxing good coating of XG279 or automotive high melting point grease.
Some of you will by now have noticed that there are TWO shapes inside top surface, inside the No4 rifle butt socket. The OLD ex SMLE shape with a rounded step on the right and a tapered step on the left and the post 1942 (?, but that’s what we called them …..) shape of two rounded steps.
Officially, and according to our EMER’s, you CAN fit a double rounded stepped butt to a single round/taper step body after adjusting the wood accordingly. But you CANNOT fit a single rounded/taper step butt to a double rounded butt socket. This is because, try as you might, you’ll never truly get it tight ….., or if you do, it won’t last!
That’s the OFFICIAL party line. But if you think that any old, wise and weary old Armourer Sergeant would allow you to wait until a stock of double rounded butts arrived, from stores in England to Korea or Aden or Malaya or wherever you were, you’re WRONG. It was quite common practice to simply dovetail, glue, patch, peg and make off the butts to get to the type you need. Simple isn’t it.
How tight do I tighten the stock bolt? I cannot find a specific torque figure but if I said to you xxxxing tight would be about right, then we won’t fall out but don’t forget to put the double coil spring washer in first followed by the stock bolt covered in the same grease. I nearly forgot. Before you put the stock bolt into the butt, with your long ‘BIT, screwdriver, stock bolt', check that there is a metal washer inside the butt. You’ll easily tell by the metal to metal sound. If there’s NOT, then PUT ONE IN. And DO NOT, DO NOT tighten the stock bolt up with the fore-end fitted because if the stock bolt does protrude into the body, then you WILL bugger up the rear of the fore-end and rest assured, a cock-up like that will ensure that you will be buying the tea’s and buns at tomorrows tea break.
That's the bit I read previously. What I'd like to know is in what orientation the dovetails are cut? ie. are they done like a heel or toe patch, or is the dovetail cut into the cross section of the "tennon"? Is the patch visible when the butt is fitted or is it local to the "tennon" only.
Like the heel and toe patch. Done hundreds of 'em...............
I was concerned with this method that I was cutting quite a bit of meat out of the stock, as I had to go quite deep through the wrist to get to the bottom of the round in order to be able to rebuild the shoulder for the other type of wrist.
None the less I think it will work, but please advise me if this is not the "correct" technique. I'd though about taking the dovetail through only a quater of the section rather than a half as I've done, but I thought this better as it will allow me to posotively fit the butt tightly into the socket, and may allow me to fit the butt a little lower (2mm or so) to disguise the fact that this timber has been sanded to smaller than the wrist. Also it allows me to reshape the top part of the visible section which also had been sanded out of shape.
Anyway this is what I've done:
I roughed it out and then fitted it using the wittness marks as a guide, but I had the angle a little wrong and the fit never took the good firm feel.
I then blued the socket with bearing blue and found only small areas of good contact, I was able to fit it better with the bearing blue as a guide, but when I bottomed out on the step to the butt I was very close but not fully bearing.
I'll cut the shoulder back 4mm, as 2mm should get me seated very firmly bearing fully, leaving a 2mm gap to the shoulder. This should only shorten the butt by 2-3mm.
Note to self, always use bearing blue from the start with this sort of thing.
I've got a funny feeling that you might have chomped off a bit too much there TBone. While the 'rounded' butts would fit either butt socket recess, the 'shouldered' butts had to be rounded to fit into the round recessed butt sockets. BUT NOT VICE VERCA. As a result, there was never a reason to replace a 'shoulder' to a rounded butt. Unless it was for aesthetics of course. I have a gut feeling that in doing your modification, you might have weaked the butt beyond repair. I could be wrong of course but.......................
We often patched the top of the butt where it'd been split etc etc but it was a fairly shallow dovetail that never went close to the stock bolt hole. Just my thoughts
I thought it looked big too, but couldn't see how I'd get it to fit otherwise. I'll proceed and see how it goes nonethless. That socket when tight looks like a good permanent clap, and 4 driven and glued pegs to arrest sheer, so the dovetail doesn't act like a wedge and split the stock as it's driven dack, and I'll bottom out the face of the tapered tennon in the bottom of the socket firmly, also to avoid this sheer. I wouldn't be surprised if it works fine, and it wouldn't suprise me if it failed quickly.I'll have to suck it and see!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I finished the fitting finally and added the pegs. There will be a little final shaping around the top when the glue for the pegs go off. The gap from the butt to the wrist was slightly uneven, so I make a safe edge hacksaw blade by grinding the kerf off one side and was able to use this to make the gap a nice even 1.5mm or so.
Happy to be out of this one! Hope it doesn't break...
Cut back the pegs, and finished shaping. Will further tidy up sanding when I refinish the whole set.
Tbone
yet another interesting project to watch as it evolves.
Again I am envious of your skill with crafting timber.
Good O
Paul
I agree................. the bloke is a woodwork genius. I wish he was a pom and worked here. We've been waiting for 3 dummy RPG rockets from our chippie for ages...................
Hi guys, I just found something interesting on the range yesterday. A guy I shoot with brought out his old bitsa No4Mk1 in .223 (a relatively common modification here). Any who, on the "ZF" marked butt was this same repair done exactly, and I mean EXACTLY the same. Done in beech on a beech on a beech butt and dowelled in Exactly the same spots. I asked if I could take some photos... but got busy shooting and all that and forgot.
I have to confess TBone that I have never seen a FTR butt repaired as extensively as that done by you and I've seen many hundreds of FTR's No4's. I would doubt that a factory FTR butt would get that treatment. I don't think it'd pass the 80% life criteria. Just my thoughts
This is the Butt on a No4 (Sporterised) Longbranch. I dont think there is much left of the original.
To me as a "non-woodworker" the joints are excellent and look worse on the pictures than they actually are.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00045-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00052-1.jpg
Ugh.........................
Quite agree - its as ugly as sin and sits in the corner on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
However it was obviously once someones pride and joy and they put a lot of work (and to my mind) skill into 'bubba-ing' it.
The pride of the collection?