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Just picked up a 6.5x55 rifle (1899) and a 7x57 BRNO Mauser, both in good condition and am wondering what checks should be made (by me, hopefully) to insure they are safe to shoot. Both have mismatched bolts. I've purchased some Prvi Partizan 139gr ammo for both, as a starting point. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Checking the headspace on both would be a good idea. Gages are available or if you have a gunsmith you trust they could do it. It doesn't take long and is fairly easy if you have the gages. Also on the 6.5 if it is still in the military stock a disc should be attached. From the numbers and markings it will show the bore wear etc. There are some books on that subject that decode the markings for you. I had to look up on one I had to see how much wear I had.
Thanks. I have the 6.5x55 gages, but not the 7x57. Guess I'll check Brounells.
The brass disk on 6.5x55 gives a barrel of 3, but my understanding is the Swedes were very picky so anything that gets a disk is going to be good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpdavis2
Yes, but... that test was made a long, long time ago, and unscrupulous people have been known to take the disks from scrapped rifles and fit them into stocks - or swap stocks, of course. (If you dismantle your Swede, the rifle number should (???) be stamped in the barrel channel)
Notoriously, SAAMI gauges tend to show all Swedes as having excessive headspace. The explanation is that these rifles were made to Swedish standards, decades before SAAMI was set up. With a matching bolt I would not worry for one second, but with any rifle, and especially with a non-matching bolt, I would take the trouble to make the elementary rough head clearance test described several times in these pages, if you just search a bit.
Finally, to stir everybody up (I'm feeling bored!) I would be surprised if anyone can produce a verified example of a 6.5x55 or 7x57 Mauser that has blown because of excessive headspace and no other defect.
Patrick
:wave:
---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------
This is NOT a joke!
Check first that the bore is truly clear AND that the rifle has not been rechambered. There are some anonymously rechambered milsurps floating around on the West side of the pond. Illegal here, of course...
Headspace gets far too much attention. These rifles will not blow up due to headspace. They will stretch, but not blow up. Many German 8mm Mausers will eat American gauges. This is due to German specs being different from the US standards. Especially true for Gew98's. Don't be surprised when the gunsmith tells you you have a problem (you don't). Lee neck sizer dies are the way to go. Good luck.
My swede likes PPU just be carefull when reloading
You´re sooo right Patrick, i´ve never seen a Swedish Mauser that was cracked by anything else than his dumb owner. Three weeks ago we had such an shooter and he destroyed his M38 with a double load of N110 powder. He had a hellish luck that he only got a light cut above his left eye from a mettal part. The bolt sticked behind him in the rifle rack, the the rifle broke into two parts. One was the buttstock with a piece of the metallwork and the second was the forestock with a complete destroyed chamber. This is why i tend to the TrailBoss powder for reduced loads, it easier to handle and not that risky like the N110.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
IMOH the double-loader is guilty of criminal negligence. He has no excuse. In the mandatory reloading course that he must have passed to get a powder licence he will have learnt that IF it is theoretically possible to double-load a case, then you MUST check by weighing the case after loading.
But we all know the reality: in a hurry - want to get to the range - check weighing takes time - hundreds of cartridges loaded - never had a mistake (yet) ...
Don't do it guys. NEVER but NEVER reload in a hurry. ALWAYS check what you have done.
Gunner wrote that the bolt was stuck in the rack. It could have been in someone else's face.
Patrick
:wave:
Holy moly! Got any pics of that demolition?
Not at the moment, i´ll ask him if i can take some pics! The Range officers face has given a good pic. He had a very fearful face because he stood close to the rack.
Ulrich and all you other guys: I am sorry to rain on your party, and apologize if I sound like a stuffy old fart - it's a lousy job, but someone has to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gunner
Such an incident is not a joke.
The double-loader (if that is what he actually did) may have perpetrated something that is so downright stupid that, if not actual criminal negligence, could certainy be construed in German law as evidence of his unfitness to possess firearms and powder. In the event of any personal injury, the range officer would have been obliged to report the incident to the police. Any personal injury would result in the firearm(s) and licence(s) being confiscated for the duration of any police investigation, with subsequent forfeit of the same if the shooter's neglicence was proven.
Please bear in mind that these contributions may be studied by those who are actively hostile to all forms of shooting.* I implore you all not to provide them with sticks with which to beat us. And the shooter concerned would be better advised talking to a lawyer than spreading photos of his errors around the world.
Very seriously yours,
Patrick
:wave:
*Explanatory note for non-German readers. There has just been a change of government in the German state of Baden-Württemberg. One of the first statements put out by the new state government, led by a "green" minister-president, included the intention to work to abolish full-bore shooting in Germany. This is not being paranoic - they have publically declared that they ARE out to get us. See the latest post fom Gunner at the "Waterhole".
Patrick, that wasn´t meant as a joke! The shooter was in prone position and had really luck that the bolt didn´t hit his face. The Range officer stood near to him because he was shooting very good til it happened. The bolt was running between the both and for the reason that we have a sort of desks from where we shooting, the RO would have been hit somwhere at the region of his hips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
He did definately a double load, he had 42grs(!!!) of N110 instead his normal 21grs in this round and it produced a chamberpressure that was 200% over the regular pressure.
Thats no fun to deal with! And thats why i changed from N110 to TB where this can´t happen.
So no joking on that topic!!!
Sorry Ulrich! I did not wish to suggest for a millisecond that you regarded it as a joke! Just that we should be very cautious of such events. And be aware that those who have publicly declared that they are out to kill off shooting are eager to pick up anything that can be pushed into the corner "public danger".
Patrick
:wave:
NO Problem Patrick, you´re right about it!:thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
I didnt mean to make light of the incident by requesting pics. One of the best ways to bring home the point of safety is to show pics indicating the consequences of not following the rules. However, if pics would bring the Polizei into the situation, or jeopardize the shooting program, then I totally agree. Reloading accidents are extremely rare in large part because the vast majority of reloaders are conscientious, and we police ourselves for the most part. Even if all participants were perfect 100% of the time, the socialists, greens, liberals and communists will still want to take our rights away with the same fervor. Finally, the vast majority of those very rare reloading accidents do not result in serious injuries because of the nature of the shooting equipment and/or the pure randomness of the events.
No Prob, Gun Surfer! I´ll understand your POV. The only thing is that i don´t know if he made pics at time. I know that he has the rifle at home. There is no Police needed. Its only the case if someone were badly injured.
Gunner, thanks, I'm not still asking for pics, just that a request for pics is not to make light of the incident. Thanks for the information as it will help us be more cautious in making reduced loads. I too have come to the conclusion to pretty much stick with Trail Boss or other suitable powder for that purpose.
I've never seen published loads for these rounds using TB, nor much at all regarding TB and jacketed bullets in any caliber. Interesting. New thread?
If you google "Handler & Natermann" and "Trail Boss" you will find a sheet of load data from 2008 presented by a German dealer. This data has disappeared from the H & N site, and they no longer show any rifle loads with Trail Boss, but plenty with N110.
Should anyone be interested in such loads, it is vital (in the original sense of life-preserving!) to recognize that these loads are only for use with the H & N copper-plated bullets, not for jacketed bullets.
Patrick
:wave:
The N110 works with light jacketed bullets too, Patrick. We developed a load together with an professional reloader and let them test at the DEVA. They are working good and without any high pressure peaks. But only if you use the recipe correctly.
The H & N load for the Swedish 6.5x55 was tested by DEVA, and the certification is actually published in the H & N reloading manual. The trouble with such reduced loads is a) one must truly follow what they have tried and tested, and b) double-loading is possible, making check-weighing after loading an imperative safety requirement, not an option.
Patrick
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
This is what I am aware of. I tried reduced rifle loads once with another powder and got erratic (but not dangerous) results, very poor accuracy. You have to follow the instructions and all reloading precautions apply. Regardless of whatever reloading I am doing, after charging cases with powder, I always double check the cases visually under a bright light to ensure consistency. The only exception is with a progressive reloader where other quality control methods are used.
Thanks Gun Surfer! VERY interesting! I've used their basic load data a fair amount, but missed this addendum.
Thanks for the feedback and info. Too bad that such a nice rifle got blown-up due to someone's negligence.
My 7x57 BRNO headspaces well with the Clymer NO-GO gauge (bolt will not close) and on PPU 139gr ammo as a GO gauge, so should be good.
The 6.5x55 Swedish NO-GO gauge should arrive tomorrow. Then get to the range and check them out on paper.
Will be shooting both rifles in our CMP 200yd vintage military bolt-action rifle matches. Don't need such a 'hot' load for 200yd.
I'll likely load with 39gr of IMR4350 and 123gr Hornady A-Max bullets in the 6.5x55 (made in 1899) to start.
For the 7x57 I'll start with 43gr of IMR4350 with the 139gr Hornady Interbond bullet.
Are you speaking of reloading PPU brass? If so, what precautions, other than what one normally checks, are you speaking of. I will not be shooting cast bullets and reduced loads in my rifles. Barely have enough time to work up accurate loads for competition and stay ahead of my reloading needs with the service rifle the way it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Mac
Will be interesting to see if the long-barrel 6.5 Swede shoots better than the shorter barrel BRNO at 200yd. I also have a shorter barrel with correct sights for the 6.5, so if the long barrel doesn't work I'll swap the barrels and try the shorter one.
I never had problems with reloading the 6.5mm. I´m using the 139grs bullets and N140, good accuracy and far away from being critical.
Hi Patrick - As you suggested, my 6.5 Swedish Mauser will close (with some effort) on the Forster NO-GO gauge. It does have a matching bolt and receiver, so that is good. Am thinking I'll simply fire the PPU 139gr ammo I've purchased and it will resize the cases upon firing. All else looks good. I may purchase some Winchester cases and size them by firing with 15gr of Titegroup topped with Cream-of-Wheat cereal and a cotton patch. Does a good job of resizing 22-250 cases for the 6.5 Creedmoor, so should work equally well for the 6.5 Swede.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
And, I will definitely be checking that the rifle hasn't been rechambered. Thanks.
You can get a 6.5mm gauge to close (with some effort)??? NO effort at all!!! Please, easy goes it with headspace gauges. Use only 2 fingers as you GENTLY close the bolt. Any resistance is it. You are finished. Make sure the chamber is free of grease and the gauge is likewise clean. Good luck, sounds like the rifle is good to go.
Good, but don't forget to only use neck-sizing for reloads, so that you are not repeatedly setting back the shoulder! I.e get a neck-sizing die, or simply screw out the sizing die about 1/4 turn from the "zeroed" setting. You know you have got it right if, after resizing a fired (but not polished) case, there is a tiny ring of darkened sizer lubricant around the neck/shoulder transition, and no rubbing mark on the shoulder. With practice, you will also be able to see this ring on polished cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by gpdavis2
Good-quality neck-sized cases in the 6.5x55 are worked so little, they will last for years and years and...
Patrick
:wave:
Yes, been reloading for a while and am aware that my bolt-guns do not require FL sizing like my semi-autos.
Am wondering how I date my Mausers? The 6.5 Swedish is stamped 1899 on the top of the receiver and is S/N 18949. Do those two correspond to being made in 1899? All numbers on the bolt and gun match (with the exception of the safety tab).
My 7x57 BRNO is stamped 9561 on the left side of the receiver and PM05473.4 on the right. Any idea about date of mfg on it?
Thanks.
Yes, that matches very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by gpdavis2
During 1899, Carl Gustaf manfactured serial nos. 3324 to 20093. So one can even make a rough interpolation and guess that your rifle was made in the period November/December 1899.
Don't know about the Czech (yet).
Patrick
:wave:
The Czech made 7mm Mausers for the world market during the period 1930 - 39.Quote:
Originally Posted by gpdavis2
Unless someone can decode PM05473.4 (which may, anyway, be an ID that was added at a later date) we need further identification. Please post pics showing the markings on the receiver as close-up and as clearly as you can make them!
Patrick
:wave:
- And a pic of the whole rifle please! We need to know which model you have. Most of the 7mm Czechs were VZ24, but there were a few other (much rarer!) models exported in this period. Is there perchance some emblem or symbol on the barrel ring that might identify the customer country?
Hope this worked. It is a VZ24 with the standard ~24" barrel. I'll add a pic of the entire rifle tomorrow. Good night.
Attachment 23060
Thanks for the photo. Please post more. So far, I see a standard " model" Vz24. These certainly went around! A quote from Ball "Military Mausers of the World" illustrates what I mean:
"The small army of Lithuainia was also equipped with Vz24 short rifles. Many of these were captured by the German forces, and then by the Russians, who later suplied them from storage to the Viet Cong, from whom they were captured by the Americans" (my bold italics)
Vz24s in 7x57 were supplied to Brazil, Columbia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Uruguay, and Venezuela. The rough contract dates are known - but you can understand that unless the customer country can be identified, we are stuck.
Patrick
:wave:
Here are pic's of both sides of the VZ24. Need to clean and then oil the stock, but that will be a cold-weather project.
Also, where in NA can one get the cleaning rods for the VZ24 and long-barreled 6.5 Swedish? I'm missing both.
Received Robert Ball's "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" in today's post and it appears that my BRNO VZ24 with its bent handle is one of those 15,000 made for Brazilian rebels in 1932. OK with me. We Americans started out as rebels (at least my family did, having arrived in 1620).