My first Milsurp

This is the first Milsurp I ever bought. I've had it for over 20 years. It was bought at a gun show if I remember correctly and other than wiping it down occasionally, I've never done anything to it. Bore is bright and shiny with no pitting and solid grooves. The stock is very clean.

I'd like to know how much of it is original and correct. It appears to have served some time in a national guard unit.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag001-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag002-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag003-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag004-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag005-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag006-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag007-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag008-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag009-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Krag010-1.jpg

The sling I know is not correct. I don't even believe it is military. It was manufactured by Red Head Brand with the logo in gold leaf. It also has 158T stamped into it just below the logo.

That is gorgeous!!! I thought I had a nice one. Not anymore. You take her out at all? These rifles are a cast shooters dream. I don't have enough experience to tell you specifically what is or isn't correct but I will hazard a guess that it is correct. Someone will come along to tell you for sure.

Can't make out the serial # to see if the 1902 cartouche is correct. But it's as original as can be otherwise. You've got eight choice for which state it served in National Guard with:
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana

Not all marked their rifles, but I think Michigan was in the habit of doing so. Even if the serial # doesn't come up as produced in 1902, swapping stocks was a common thing. Many rifles are in stocks cartouched with a year other than than that of their production. That is a nice one, the wood was referred to as Italian walnut. I have a Japanese type I rifle, which was made by the Italians for Japan, and the wood is the same color.

While I have thought about it many times, I have never fired it. I did get so far as to buy a box of ammo for it but it hasn't been to the range.

Serial number is 366095 which matches 1902 manufacture from the sources I could find. Pretty close to the middle for production that year.

I do have a bayonet with an early scabbard but no cleaning kit or appropriate sling.

aragorn,
that's a beautiful Krag! I had a decent one but let it get away for something else. Wish I had ol' 385570 back. They are great shooters with cast bullets. Take care of the ol' girl.
doc

It looks like a good one and it is probably too late in the production cycle to think that it was refurbished after issuance, like many of the older ones were. The screws look nice, slot-wise and the sight looks like the 1902 model, which would probably have been put in place originally. The Italian walnut is generally though to have been used on stocks made in 1901. They never scrimped on stock wood in those days.

Most definately the finest example i've ever seen and i'm a graybeard, even joe paterno would be envious of you ! Instead of 'WE ARE' it's now 'YOU ARE' in my book...

I don't know what to say other than thanks for your comments.

I was nervous about posting photos of it although it was the one I really wanted to know about. When I first started coming here, I was interested in reading about the Krags and the Martini-Henry's because that's what I had and every Krag seemed to have miss-matched parts. I figured it was time to take the plunge and find out what I needed to get for it.

Now I better work harder to find that sling.

Aragorn,
Beautiful rifle in great condition, enjoy.

Andiarisaka mentioned that it is Italian walnut. Is there a set block of serial numbers that has this Italian walnut ? I have a sporterized 98 Krag serial # 443456 with a walnut stock thats almost the color of yellow pine. Its a military stock with the original butt plate and finger groove forend. Could this also be an Italian walnut stock ?
Thanks
Bob

It appears there was more than one color of "Italian". There was the orange flavor, and the yellow flavor. Yellow seems to be the most rare. No particular serial # range, but I first started noticing the orange on rifles made in 1899. Rifles and carbines prior to that are more likely American black walnut, though some have opined that chestnut was sometimes used.

It has obviously been lightly sanded. The circle P is to indistinct to be "as stamped" . The pictures seem to indicate that the grain of the wood is raised.

Aragorn,
That is a wonderful looking Krag. Mine is in the same configuration, only it's dated 1900. To be honest, I was always a little ambivalent towards American Krags since they always seem to be very pricy items. The irony is that the Krag I really wanted and was trying to hold out for was/is the Norwegian M1912 Engineer Carbine; what a beaut! They seem to go for as much or more now-a-days. I ended up being offered a ridiculous deal on mine and could not pass it up. Having had it for a while and shot it a little, I have not been disappointed either. It does not get fired much and tends to be a bit of a safe-queen but is still a great conversation piece as I am sure you are aware. FYI, they look great on a wall if you can get the wife to agree to it! :lol: At any rate, a wonderful weapon you have there and I know that I am not alone when I encourage you to explore this passion and start filling up gun safes! If you'd like a good read, I can recommend "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine" by Joe Poyer, a Northcape Publications book (as a matter of fact, ALL of their books are great bastions of information for the beginner to intermediate collector) and it is available on Amazon.com for around $20. Happy collecting! (Now you need a Bayonet for it!)

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No particular serial # range

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There are three.

I hate to be a wet towel but the gun is refinished. 10th picture, action open, shows clear re-browning line at the front.

It is a very nice rifle.

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Originally Posted by andiarisaka

That is a nice one, the wood was referred to as Italian walnut. I have a Japanese type I rifle, which was made by the Italians for Japan, and the wood is the same color.

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First off, I must say I'd be proud to have such a fine-looking example of a Krag! Thank you for sharing it on this forum.

As others have pointed out, a refinishing has been done on your rifle. I would like to add that the original color (obtained by staining the walnut stock with an ox blood mordant) would most likely have been a consistent deep red, almost purple. While pictures don't usually do justice, it appears that your rifle's stock has had some color loss due to refinishing. A couple shots seem to show uneven color tone, again, the possible result of the furniture being sanded & refinished. I concur with the observation that the proof mark was (over) sanded -my guess to remove bruises in the stock wrist caused by racking the rifle in the arms roomrack.

I don't mean to come across as a critic; please accept my comments in the spirit in which they're given. I hope you've been edified
Again, very nice rifle!

Thanks everyone for your opinions. I've been reading all and taking them into consideration. I had wondered myself at the "faintness" of the circle "p". While I'm not willing to say as yet that it has been sanded, I'm not discounting it either. Why I would question the sanding is that the number stamped directly above the circle "p" shows no indication of being sanded. Could simply mean the rifle was refurbished and sanded prior to being given to the National Guard and they stamped the number on it or that some other individual stamped the number on it. All other markings on the stock are very sharp and it does have many light dings and scratches which light sanding would have easily removed. I've not noticed any raised grain anywhere on the stock so any appearance of such is just the result of the photo. The stock is very clean and smooth. The reddish color is most likely the result of the flash, it is not red under natural light and is much darker under national light.

As for the line inside the action, there is no browning inside the action. It is blued. The bluing does not look the same as the exterior of the rifle which could mean less wear or that parts have been replaced or refinished at some point. As for the line, I can't explain that one at all. It is not wear, it is a very sharp and distinct line between blued metal and bare metal. Does not appear to be sanded or filed either, just not blued. Looks almost like the part in question was lowered into the solution to that point only. No rust on it either, just bare clean metal.

I have not taken this rifle apart to see what the metal looks like under the wood. I guess I should do that at some point but it's not something I'm too concerned about, I'm not planning to sell it.

If anyone would like more specific photos let me know of what part or parts.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

As for the line inside the action, there is no browning inside the action. It is blued.

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No, it is browned. Browning and blueing are two different processes. Similar but they use different chemicals. Some parts were blued and some parts were browned. That receiver has been re-browned.

Check ordnance memoranda 22 for the processes. Rock Island's annual report, 1891 if I recall, also has a detailed report on both.

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Originally Posted by 5MadFarmers

No, it is browned. Browning and blueing are two different processes. Similar but they use different chemicals. Some parts were blued and some parts were browned. That receiver has been re-browned.

Check ordnance memoranda 22 for the processes. Rock Island's annual report, 1891 if I recall, also has a detailed report on both.

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Admittedly, I know very little about these rifles which is why I'm asking. But you are confusing me here. I'm simply not seeing a browned finish on the receiver. It looks blued although the exterior is browning with age which is consistent with original bluing. I've read that many of these did go through a refurbishing process around the WWI time frame which would account for the light sanding and possible refinish of the receiver. Is that what you are suggesting?

I pulled it out and looked at it again, it is not a deep blue like I was thinking but definitely blue. I understand the browning process can be turned blue by boiling the metal so I'm not saying it isn't possible.

As for the circle "p", it has been sanded, I examined it very closely and can see the marks. The number 34 was added after, probably by the national guard (?)

As for the interior "line" of bare metal, I located a photo of another rifle with the same effect:

Krag Jorgensen ready to rock and roll (courtesy Roy Hill for The Truth About Guns) | The Truth About Guns

Browning and Blueing are the processes - not the end result colors. Browning results in a color most would call "blue." The third process used is called "blackening."

Barrels on Krags and Trapdoors were never blued - they were browned. Looking at them most would call them "blue" but they were in fact browned.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

...the number stamped directly above the circle "p" shows no indication of being sanded... All other markings on the stock are very sharp and it does have many light dings and scratches which light sanding would have easily removed. I've not noticed any raised grain anywhere on the stock so any appearance of such is just the result of the photo. The stock is very clean and smooth.

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Yes, light dings and scratches may be evident; the stock has been (lightly?) sanded, nonetheless.
(Light dings and scratches that occur after a stock has been sanded take on the same appearance as light dings and scratches that occur prior to sanding.)

An obvious area (not yet mentioned) is the edge line of the grasping grooves. The edges are clearly rounded and therefore inconsistent with the vast array of examples I have seen, handled, or own. Examples may be viewed by anyone, anywhere, with just a few clicks or by viewing pages and pages of reference material. After research, one will note that even a stock that bears many scars from years of service and hard use will still exhibit well-defined edges on the grasping grooves. Be careful not to compare your stock to another "pretty" refinished stock; you'll draw conclusions based on an altered "control."

Another area obviously sanded is shown in the view of the buttstock rack number (?) "L 28". The "L" is about half-obliterated from sanding and the numbers appear to show some loss, too.

Once the conclusion is made that the stock has been sanded, a new set of questions arises:
Did arsenal refurbishing of a rifle include refinishing the furniture? Anyone?
...I don't recall reading or otherwise learning of that anywhere.

So, if "Bubba" did the stock refinishing, were the ostensibly "correct" markings (subinspector marks, "1902" cartouche) altered, either by sanding down or by re-striking?
Are they "original" survivors of the stock refinishing? -Possibly.
...That's part of the problem, here. You just can't say with certainty.

The stock was most certainly sanded & refinished. No doubt about it.

Unmolested examples are the rarest and most desirable for good reason.
Still, it doesn't hurt to have an aesthetically pleasing, yet altered, example as you do, Aragorn.

I was at a gun show over the weekend, didn't find anything worth purchasing. Did look at some original Krags as suggested and do see the difference on the finger grooves.

So the consensus seems to be a lightly sanded stock which probably removes it from the serious collectors interests but an otherwise nice looking rifle that the average person may still have interest in. A bit of a step down from the original glowing praise but nice to know the truth. Thanks for all the opinions and the explanations for the opinions, they are much more valuable than simply saying something was done to it without any explanation as to how that conclusion was made. Now I know what to look for.

This is probably the only Krag I will own, I don't plan to get another as it is a nice representative piece for me.