"X" Mum

What is the significance of an "X" mum? Does it greatly detract from the value? The rifle is in nice shape otherwise. The "X" basically follows the lines of the mum itself and then extend another 1/8" beyond. There is another parallel line slightly off one of the arms of the "X".

I'm assuming it was the lazy way to deface the mum so not likely a bring back.

A second rifle has a very nice looking stock which the seller assumes was lightly sanded and refinished. It does have Japanese writing engraved on the buttstock and otherwise looks great. Any way to tell if it has been refinished or just well cared for?

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

It does have Japanese writing engraved on the buttstock and otherwise looks great. Any way to tell if it has been refinished or just well cared for?

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Usually (this comes from the "there's no guarantee for anything department) unit numbers, codes etc would be stamped on an accepted rifle after it was finished. In such case, there are nice crisp edges to the markings, and under a watchmaker's eyeglass you can see that the original finish coat has been broken by the stamps. Of course, there are types of rifle where it is known that some marks were applied before finishing, but in the case of Japanese writing it is reasonable to suppose that it was after. And also extremely unlikely that some ultra-creative Bubba faked it.

If, on the other hand, the rifle has been refinished at a later date, then it is a giveaway if the new finish has flowed over the edges of the markings and (partially) filled them up. The easiest way to learn is to look at a couple of rifles where you are certain that they are not refinished, and then look at the doubtful one.

Japanese rifles originally (it seems to have become doubtful later in WWII) had a lacquer "urushi" finish. This is difficult to tell from a modern varnish, if you have never seen one before. So until you have gained some hands-on experience, the edges of the markings are the best clue.

How about posting a close-up photo of the markings/writing, so that we can all have a guess?

Patrick
:wave:

Need some pics to be certain but it sounds like a ''school-marked'' rifle. Is the mark in between the chrysanthemum and type designation, and are there two or three zeros preceeding thr ser.#? something like this -> 00123456 or 000123456. It should also have the Tokyo or Kokura arsenal symbol or ring of small circles overstamped on the chyrsanthemum.

Patrick,

Sale is tomorrow, if it comes home with me, I'll post pics. I will check it out for the finish in the markings. The markings are big, half inch high or so, there are three of them. The finish is unlike the rest of the rifles there of that type.

Vintage Hunter,

The "X" is centered on the mum, there are no zeros in front of the serial and the arsenal is not stamped on the mum, just the big X and a smaller line parallel to the one arm of the X and on top of the mum as well.

I did write the serials down so I can check their series numbers but haven't taken the time to research them yet. Will do so before going to the sale in the morning.

I was able to locate some examples of the "X" mum. One site called it a "staked" mum. It was an attempt to deface the mum prior to surrendering the rifle and is the equivalent to a ground mum in collector circles.

I also found an image of the school markings and that is definitely not what it is.

In a way, it's a shame as this is otherwise the nicest of the three rifles I'm interested in and has everything except the dust cover including what appears to be an original leather sling.

I'll have to think this one over. Depends on price obviously. The sellers are calling this an untouched mum which is inaccurate.

The chrysanthemum emblem was a symbol that the rifle was the emperor's property. If a rifle was taken out of army service (like the school rifles) or surrendered, then the "mum" was defaced or ground off to show that it was no longer the property of the emperor. So, to all you collectors who like to use the phrase "part of it's history" - that defacement is part of its history!

Personally, I am not a collector of showcase items - I just want to have an rifle that shoots well and has not been "improved" by Bubba. So I would examine all three from the point of view of shooting potential, go for the best (potential) shooter, and not worry about the defacement of the mum - that is anyway preferable to one where the mum has been ground off!

Patrick
:wave:

Patrick,

I hear what you're saying and pretty much agree with you. I'm not a serious collector, just like to get the best I can afford which admittedly is usually fixer uppers.

They have 10 Arisaka's at this auction. I've narrowed them down to three that I'm interested in with possibly 2 others that if they go way low I'd consider. They haven't had one with an intact mum in over 6 months, today they have about 5 I think without looking back through my papers but 3 of them are missing important things like the handguard, mis matched bolts or have bad bores. One is listed as having a dark bore and as it is chrome, I believe it just needs cleaned.

I'm heading out the door now, may have one to report later, I don't know. This auction tends to not favor me much, things I don't want sell cheap and things I do go high, maybe I'm getting to be a better judge of the rifles if nothing else. After seeing what a few fellows recently purchased, one locally, I'm not going to throw down a lot of cash today as the one purchased for $300 at a gun show is vastly superior to anything at this auction.

I am learning patience if nothing else.

Rifle #1 last ditch Nagoya ground off mum, poor bore, painted brown $100.00
Rifle #2 Kokura intact mum, mismatched bolt, bad bore, rusty metal $100.00
Rifle #3 Nagoya intact mum, mismatched bolt, missing hand guard, dirty bore $130.00
Rifle #4 and the first I had an interest in, Kokura intact mum, mismatched bolt, with dust cover although it looked to be a repro, nice metal, excellent bore, decent stock $400.00
Rifle #5 and the second I had an interest in, Kokura with struck mum, matching bolt, excellent bore, mono-pod, good metal, good stock and leather sling $475.00
Rifle #6 Kokura missing mono-pod, mum ground down but visible, matching bolt, excellent borre, decent metal $225.00
Rifle #7 Nagoya with mono-pod, mum ground off, mismatched bolt good bore $300.00
Rifle #8 and the third I was interested in, Kokura missing dust cover and cleaning rod, mum intact, later war so no monopod or aircraft sights, unfinishish safety cap good bore but action was very stiff, this is the one that the stock had been refinished and looking closely at it I'm pretty sure it had been, finish was inside the letters $375.00
Rifle #9 Kokura, no dust cover, cleaning rod or mono-pod, mum ground off, very crude stock that looked like a tiger stripe $150.00
Rifle #10 Kokura missing dust cover, mono-pod and cleaning rod, matching bolt, excellent bore, mum ground off $200.00

After inspecting them again today I decided against rifle #8 early on as I hadn't noticed it was a late war or that the action didn't work right. I had decided to concentrate on Rifle #5 because even though the mum had been struck it was still there, all the numbers matched and it appeared to be in excellent working condition. I would have gone with Rifle #4 only if it followed the examples of #'s 1 through 3 and gone low.

Taking condition and missing items, ground mums, etc into account, rifles 1-3 and 9 were probably bargains, 6 and 10 just a bit high but close 4, 5, 7, 8 very high.

I had priced a mono-pod last night at $65 if you can find one. Repro slings and cleaning rods are available reasonably but the mono-pod seemed to be the killer if it were missing.

Granted I don't know a lot about them, I don't know if there were rare series rifles involved in there but I don't believe so Production figures for all Nagoya and Kokura rifles seemed to be the same for all there today.

I also take into consideration that this is the same auction that two Mosin Nagant import 91-30's were bought for $350.00 each very recently.

I guess it's time for me to abandon this auction and head for the gun shows.

of the rifles you listed #5 sounded the best, but the price was about $150 too high already.

oh, and:

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i also take into consideration that this is the same auction that two mosin nagant import 91-30's were bought for $350.00 each very recently.

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what???!

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I guess it's time for me to abandon this auction and head for the gun shows.

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From that price info, I would agree with you. $350.00 or a little more would put you in the market for a good Tsarist "long" 91.

The Mosin Nagant situation at this place is bizarre to say the least. I hadn't gone to this auction for quite a while because I wasn't in the market for anything but with my long subdued interest in Milsurps being renewed by an ad for $99 Mosin Nagants at Cabela's I started going again. Between 15 and 20 years ago I had bought a few rifles, a British WWI 303, an Australian cadet rifle and the Kraq I just posted pictures of. The Australian cadet rifle was the last rifle I bought at this auction.

So Cabela's sells them for $99.00 I get if for free because I have points for using their credit card. Dunham's starts selling them for $79-$89 depending on the sale and both of these merchants are within a 40 minute drive of here. I go to the auction and they have two of them for sale, exact same rifles, import marked with the pair of ammo pouches, oiler, bayonet, etc and they both sell in the $180-$200 range. I had been talking with a fellow that collects them and he was there for the same reason I was, if they sold for $50-$60 he'd get them. He was as baffled as I was on the price. I went out the next day and went to Dunham's and bought one for $79.00

Gradually, the prices have been going up. The last auction that had them they again had two and both sold for $350.00. It is very tempting for me to go to Duhnams again, buy one and swap out parts with the ones I have and then take it there for them to sell.

Some things sell for decent prices, others do not. While I was concentrating on the Arisaka's today, they had a beautiful 1917 all matching Winchester with a 1-18 barrel on it that had not been refurbished, the eagles head could still be seen stamped into the wood and the metal was nice and clean. The bore was like new and there was no question the crown on this was like new as well. Very crisp and clean. This sold for $500 which considering it's condition was probably a steal. A 1942 Lithgow 303 with full length stock, very good metal and wood sold for $400, three like newly issued 03A3's sold for $500 each with a fourth bringing $825. The last that I caught was an 1885 Chilean Mauser for $375 which seemed a bit high.

I made a mistake in skipping the Reading Gun Show. I saw the signs for it in time and thought about it but I'd been waiting on this auction for 2 months figuring with 10 Arisakas there would be one that would match both my desires and price range. I couldn't examine them until yesterday when I narrowed it down to three and then today to two. I believe Harrisburg will have one in June and I guess I'll make the trek there to see what I can find.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I also take into consideration that this is the same auction that two Mosin Nagant import 91-30's were bought for $350.00 each very recently.

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Perhaps that was the price for a pack of 5:madsmile: