Failure to feed in my Husqvarna M38

Hi everyone,

I bought my Swedish M38 back in October. To test it out, I bought a box of Remington Core-Lokt 140gn 6.5x55 ammunition. I've read around online and a lot of people recommended it for use in the 1896 or M38, so I figure my problem likely isn't the ammunition.

Here is what happens (pardon the blurriness):

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/ftf1th-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/ftf2th-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fthreeth-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngfailth-1.jpg



Of five rounds, the first two that feed from the right of the mag (i.e., the 1st and 3rd rounds) will skid up the feed ramp, and then the bolt will push them forward until the nose of the bullet jams against the 7 o'clock position on the outside of the chamber.

In this following image, you can note a lot of copper fouling on the feed ramp, from the rounds being pushed over it. I don't know if this is to be expected in an M38, but it doesn't look right at all to me.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...daboveth-1.jpg

When the 1st and 3rd rounds are being fed, it is anything but smooth. The sides of the casings are scratched (probably by the walls of the magazine, or the lip of the receiver). It also does not appear as though the extractor is grabbing the cases on the 1st and 3rd rounds as it does on the 2nd, 4th, or even the 5th (which feeds alright, despite also feeding from the right side of the magazine).

I've contacted the previous owner about this issue, and his remedy was simply to ram the bolt home with as much brute force as possible. I can't see a good reason to need to do this on a Mauser, and despite thinking it was pretty dumb, I tried working the action harder than I normally would on my milsurp bolt rifles. The result? Bigger scratches on the cases, and visible damage to the méplat. I didn't expect it to work, but I wanted to see just what this guy was telling me he did.

If anyone could help me out here, it'd be hugely appreciated. I don't know what I'm looking to fix at this point. I'm assuming maybe the magazine spring, but I have no real idea. I'm at my wits' end, because I really love this rifle overall. I shoot competitively with a Swiss Rifle Club, and between this thing and my K31, I have a real love affair with accurate milsurp rifles. It's in great condition overall (the flash makes the mag follower look way worse in that last picture than it does to the naked eye), and I want to be able to use it to hunt, too.

Thanks in advance for any help, and please let me know if you need more information to help me diagnose this issue!

There may be damage to the edge of the magazine box, the cutout in the system, or the follower itself. Impossible to tell from the photos - you just have to look at all edges that might snag the case, and remove any burrs.

But one very simple possibility (don't laugh - I've experienced it, having made the mix-up myself:o) is that at some time someone fitted a follower from a different caliber of Mauser! Although they look superficially the same, they are not identical, having subtle differences in the length, height, width and slope of the follower - especially the ridge that holds the first round to one side. The wrong shape here can cause the stack of cases to be at the wrong angle, resulting in a "nose-up" case that bangs on the top of the entrance to the chamber. The case, being forced in at a steeper angle than intended, then becomes scratched by the bottom of the entrance (feed ramp) or the magazine box, and the nose of the bullet may be deformed.

Even if this all sounds potty, please just humor my eccentricities and check that the follower a) has the Swedish crown stamped on it, and b) has not been reshaped in any way.

Patrick
:wave:

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for your response! Yes, I maybe should have mentioned it, but this is indeed a Swedish Crown-marked follower. I'll try and remove some burrs. What would you recommend -- sandpaper, steel wool and oil...?

Thanks again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

There may be damage to the edge of the magazine box, the cutout in the system, or the follower itself. Impossible to tell from the photos - you just have to look at all edges that might snag the case, and remove any burrs.

But one very simple possibility (don't laugh - I've experienced it, having made the mix-up myself:o) is that at some time someone fitted a follower from a different caliber of Mauser! Although they look superficially the same, they are not identical, having subtle differences in the length, height, width and slope of the follower - especially the ridge that holds the first round to one side. The wrong shape here can cause the stack of cases to be at the wrong angle, resulting in a "nose-up" case that bangs on the top of the entrance to the chamber. The case, being forced in at a steeper angle than intended, then becomes scratched by the bottom of the entrance (feed ramp) or the magazine box, and the nose of the bullet may be deformed.

Even if this all sounds potty, please just humor my eccentricities and check that the follower a) has the Swedish crown stamped on it, and b) has not been reshaped in any way.

Patrick
:wave:

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Have you tried any Swedish issue ammo? Give that a try.

hard to tell from the pics but are you sure the extractor claw is okay? if the rim wont slip under the claw cleanly this might cause some issues. I would look and feel for obvious burrs and faults before sandpapering or filing anything.
Also, the cartridge you are using in ImageShack - Online Photo and Video Hosting looks to be damaged just prior to the shoulder. It could just be the pic but it might be a clue if it wasn;t there before putting into the rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xa-coupe

hard to tell from the pics but are you sure the extractor claw is okay? if the rim wont slip under the claw cleanly this might cause some issues. I would look and feel for obvious burrs and faults before sandpapering or filing anything.
Also, the cartridge you are using in ImageShack - Online Photo and Video Hosting looks to be damaged just prior to the shoulder. It could just be the pic but it might be a clue if it wasn;t there before putting into the rifle.

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That photo is actually one taken by the previous owner (he didn't let me know about this issue until after I was sold the rifle, which I am not at all happy about, but here we are). I've been using new, undamaged rounds.

The extractor does seem to be working alright for other rounds, but I will take a look at it. I think I might try sandpapering the feed ramp, at least, as it is rather rough.

if you can take some clear close up photos I can compare it to mine .. for what it's worth.

My only functional camera is in my phone... and it's in for repairs. If I can't figure the problem out within the next week, though, I could probably get it back and post some photos.

I'd go easy sanding unless you find a burr or something. There's bound to be an issue that's determinable and you won't need to sand things or force things.

I'm leaning toward Patrick that an incorrect follower/spring may have been installed or something assembled wrong. It doesn't take much to mess things up.

I hope the previous owner didn't compound an original issue by forcing the bolt like he said he did. It should feed freely and easily.

Take your time and don't get in a hurry grinding/sanding.

~ Harlan

Does anyone else think the cartridges in the pictures look to be something other that 6.5x55? The pics are'nt the best quality but the cartridges look an awful lot like 6.5 Remington Magnum to me. Maybe the wrong cartridges were loaded in the magazine and some damage occured when the previous owner attempted to force the bolt closed? Maybe just my eyes and bad pics playing tricks..:dunno:

Of course, if one forces in the wrong cartridges, there will be problems...

However, if the cartridges are correct, then something is wrong with that rifle, and the following may help:

Correct feeding in a Swedish Mauser

This series of photos shows a Norma "Diamond Line" cartridge being fed into my Carl Gustav. There is no functional difference in this action between the m/96 and a m/96-38 or m/38 short rifle.

First of all, let us look at the closed system.
Attachment 23349

Like all of my rifles, this is a real working rifle, not a safe queen. The woodwork is dented and scratched from its service life, but I can assure you that the action is impeccable.

Now take a look at the open breech.

Attachment 23353

Observe the crown-marked follower. The wrong type of follower can affect feeding.
Please also observe the shape of the rim on the action body. Any dents or burrs on this edge will definitely affect feeding, and, judging by the photos of the "high-nose" feeding, damage to this rim is very likely the cause of the trouble. (The dark streak on the right is an oil smear!)

Take a look at the feed ramp. Note that the start of the ramp is BELOW the level of the follower.

Attachment 23346


A cartridge is now inserted. Note how it lies quite flat.

Attachment 23352

Now we start to close the bolt.

As the cartridge is pushed forwards by the bolt face, note that it does NOT rise up.
Attachment 23354

Note that the tip of the bullet is above the start of the feed ramp. If this is NOT the case, then you have discovered at least one cause of trouble.

The next photo is at the point where the bullet tip contacts the feed ramp.
Attachment 23351


Note that the cartridge is still within the magazine. The cartridge now starts to rise, whereby the rim comes up behind the extractor.
Attachment 23350

Note that the cartridge is NOT tilted up. But the nose moves over to the center line as the bullet enters the chamber.
Attachment 23348

Finally, the rim is completely in the bolt head and securely held by the extractor. The cartridge is now free of the magazine.
Attachment 23347
The bolt can now be pushed home and closed.

IMPORTANT OBSERVATION:
At NO stage is the front of the cartridge pushed up as shown in the photos of the problem rifle. If you follow this photo sequence and compare it with the problem rifle, if should be possible to identify the point where the cartridge is not moving correctly.

Patrick
:wave:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

The pics are'nt the best quality but the cartridges look an awful lot like 6.5 Remington Magnum to me.

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I don't think so. The 6.5 Remington Magnum is a) a belted cartridge and b) much fatter.

At present, I think the extractor may be burred. Referring to my previous post: in the last photo in the sequence, when the cartridge is free of the magazine - there should be a small but noticeable end play of the rim within the extractor - maybe 10 thou or so. If there is no such play, then either the case rim or the extractor is at fault. Without some play, the rim cannot rise up behind the extractor. Since the cartridges on the left of the magazine are skewed slightly to the right, they slide up behind the extractor easier than the cartridges on the right - which are skewed slightly to the left.

Simply remove the bolt and check that a case rim fits behind the extractor with enough slop to let you wiggle the case left and right a couple of degrees!

Patrick
:wave:

P.S. The marks on the feed ramp also indicate that the rifle has been mishandled at some time. Look at my photo sequence again - the ramp on my rifle is unmarked. With correct feeding, the bullet tip hardly touches the ramp.

I don't think this guy was quite that dumb, but maybe... in any case, I get the same issue now as in these photos of his, and I'm definitely loading 6.5x55 Swedish, according to ammo box and headstamp.

So at this point, what would you guys recommend I do? Start by buying a replacement mag spring, and then start looking to do some light sanding if that doesn't fix the issue? I think I might be able to source a mag spring or two from a friend who works at a gun shop over on the west coast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

Does anyone else think the cartridges in the pictures look to be something other that 6.5x55? The pics are'nt the best quality but the cartridges look an awful lot like 6.5 Remington Magnum to me. Maybe the wrong cartridges were loaded in the magazine and some damage occured when the previous owner attempted to force the bolt closed? Maybe just my eyes and bad pics playing tricks..:dunno:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by watermoccasin

So at this point, what would you guys recommend I do?

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Read my last two posts. Follow my photo sequence, and see where your rifle deviates from those pictures! Check that there is a bit of play between the extractor and the case rim.

Patrick

Whoops! I posted without seeing that a second page had already started. Okay, thanks a ton for the photo sequence! Later tonight, I will go through this with my rifle, and let you guys know. I'm already quite certain that my extractor isn't grabbing the rim until the bolt is much further ahead than in your photos, but I will double check.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Read my last two posts. Follow my photo sequence, and see where your rifle deviates from those pictures! Check that there is a bit of play between the extractor and the case rim.

Patrick

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Watermoccasin, you said in post #6 that you were'nt told of the proble until AFTER you had bought the rifle so what you should do,IMHO, first is take it back where you got it, get a refund, then go find one that functions properly because the guy you bought it from is dishonest crook for not telling you it had problems from the git-go. Just my 2 cents worth.

Patrick, thanks a lot for your photos. I just ran through them in sequence with the rifle in my hands, first with one round loaded, and then with three. I can see where there may be more than one issue, actually.

Firstly, on the inside wall of the rim on the action body, there is a small burr/scrape in the metal at the point where the rim widens on the right side, towards the front of the receiver.

Secondly, while by no means smooth, with only one or two rounds loaded in the magazine, the extractor will grip both at some point, and the gun will feed (albeit roughly) these rounds into the chamber. However, with three rounds in place, the round on top seems to bind on the underside of the action body rim a bit, and the bolt only succeeds in pushing the round forward – at no point will the rim on this cartridge slide up behind the extractor. When it gets to the point where the action body rim widens (just around the burr/scrape), the round binds against the outside of the chamber, and the side of the action body rim. At some point, it will pick up a pretty nasty gouge or scratch on the brass, probably from the burr on the inside rim of the action body.

There's a lot more slop in the magazine and follower of this rifle than I am used to. It has a lot of forward-and-backward play, and enough lateral play that, if I push the follower down with my thumb on an empty mag, I can make it bind within the magazine as well. I don't know if this is normal to the M38 or not.

There looks to be some roughness to the metal at the bottom corner of the extractor, but not necessarily a burr, per se. I removed the bolt and stuck a cartridge or two in there, and was able to get the up/down play you mentioned, so I don't think it's that the extractor is too tight. I'm thinking also that the roughness I am seeing on the extractor was likely caused by the previous owner and his brother hulking out on the bolt in order to chamber the rounds.

PS I know you guys have already done a lot to help me, but I was wondering if you could take a photo of the inside of the action body rim, as well as a detail shot of the front of your extractor claw, so that I can make a comparison there. I'd be hugely grateful (not that I'm not already)!

vintage hunter: The first thing I thought when I found out about this was to have the guy charged with fraud. I might as well tell the story of how I found out that this was a known issue before the rifle was sold to me...

I bought this rifle back in October, in a private sale through an online forum. The seller mailed the firearm to me, as he lives a few thousand kilometres from where I am. He's not a firearms dealer or anything of that kind – just a private citizen. So, I wasn't shooting the gun, really. I then hit upon this problem, and started Googling. It turns out that this issue is really unique – I couldn't find anyone with the same problem, no matter what combination of terms I used. A few days ago, I must have typed something different, because I hit upon this forum post from almost two years ago:

Failure to feed on my new Swede!!

"Great," I thought to myself, "I've finally found someone with my exact issue! Now I can see what this guy did to fix the rifle."

So I click on the photos. They look... oddly familiar, and so I open the email the seller sent me in October, with the photos he sent of the rifle. Yep: they're the same photos, from the same album. He simply left out any photos that depicted the feed issue, and used the other photos as part of his photo exhibit in the email to me. That's my rifle being discussed in that Gunboards post.

The problem with charging him with fraud, though, is the bit at the bottom: see how he said he was going to the gunsmith? He never made that trip. Why? Well, I found the answer to that in another post by the same guy on yet another forum. He was about to take it to the gunsmith, but he figured he'd talk to his brother first, because his brother, who "knows a lot about guns," convinced this guy that old military bolt actions just need to be cycled super-hard. He greased the feed ramp, rammed the bolt home with great force each time he cycled the action, and found that this worked for him – essentially turning this into a push-feed rifle on rounds 1 and 3, I guess. He told me the same when I contacted him by email, advising me to cycle the action harder. I can't really have him charged for fraud, because he seems to have honestly believed that the rifle didn't need fixing, and that this was just user error on his part causing the issue. Between the email he sent me the other day, and the other forum post from October of 2009, his story checks out. Therefore, he didn't knowingly mislead me in selling the weapon as-is. I doubt I could get him to take a refund on the weapon, either, and it's not likely that he has the money lying around anyway. I got it for a good price, too, so hopefully with repairs I will still be into it for less than some people pay for these rifles.

From what you write, it sounds as if taking action for fraud would only make the lawyers richer. And the cure is probably not even expensive. You will have to dismantle the rifle completely to gain access to the inside edge of the lip. (Sorry, I am not going to dismantle my rifle to take a photo!)

Do not go at it with files, sandpaper etc, as you cannot control the abrasive action accurately enough. The tool to use for this (and other similar problems with burred edges) is a diamond lap. I use one called "EZ-lap", color-coded red.

This cuts so finely that the result almost looks like a polished finish, but requires plenty of time, a drop of oil on the cutting surface, a light touch (it is not a rasp!) and frequent checking. When you wipe the oil off the surface you are working on, the bright line will show you when the burr has been cut down flush with the surface again. Never forget the motto "you can file it off, but you can't file it back on again".

And when you have filed down the burrs, use a rotating action of the hand to barely round off the edge, to avoid any sharp edges that would scratch the cartridge case.

Such a lap is not cheap, but it will last for years of careful use.

Patrick
:wave:

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the tip. I noticed that there are a few of these EZE-Lap tools in red. Is the oval one on this page the one you mean? EZE-LAP Fine Oval Shaft, Red Handle - EZE-Fold Folding Handle - Knifecenter.com

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

From what you write, it sounds as if taking action for fraud would only make the lawyers richer. And the cure is probably not even expensive. You will have to dismantle the rifle completely to gain access to the inside edge of the lip. (Sorry, I am not going to dismantle my rifle to take a photo!)

Do not go at it with files, sandpaper etc, as you cannot control the abrasive action accurately enough. The tool to use for this (and other similar problems with burred edges) is a diamond lap. I use one called "EZ-lap", color-coded red.

This cuts so finely that the result almost looks like a polished finish, but requires plenty of time, a drop of oil on the cutting surface, a light touch (it is not a rasp!) and frequent checking. When you wipe the oil off the surface you are working on, the bright line will show you when the burr has been cut down flush with the surface again. Never forget the motto "you can file it off, but you can't file it back on again".

And when you have filed down the burrs, use a rotating action of the hand to barely round off the edge, to avoid any sharp edges that would scratch the cartridge case.

Such a lap is not cheap, but it will last for years of careful use.

Patrick
:wave:

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I'm sure you'll get it sorted out one way or another. I can tell you're committed to it and I hope you're almost there.

I think you're just a nice guy and going easy on the jerk who sold the gun. I say he knew there was a problem or he wouldn't have been posting looking for a solution and when he didn't have the aptitude/diligence to fix it he passed the problem on to another person.
Luckily you're a better man than he is and the rifle will be brought back to where it should be. (And you got it for a good price so a little work won't be too bad of a deal)

Think of it like this -
Would you pass it on to another like it is without first saying something about the feed issue? 'NO'
You're two completely different class of people and I only know you from reading a few paragraphs here (JMO)

~ Harlan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by watermoccasin

Is the oval one on this page the one you mean?

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I would personally prefer to use a flat one in this case. The cutting surface is slightly flexible (because of the plastic backing) so that you can actually get the tip of the flat lap to follow a gradual curve. The curve along the receiver cutout rim is so gradual that with the oval one you may go in too deep and actually cut a slight depression. However, the rate of cutting is soooo slow that as long as you frequently wipe off the oil to check progress, you are unlikely to make that mistake. So either will do the job. Your worst enemy is impatience.

I have over the years acquired a number of these tools - flat, round, and oval. The oval one is excellent for sharpening knife blades to an almost razor edge. The flat one is invaluable for touching up burred trigger edges and the like, without cutting through case-hardening.
But remember - these are not metal files - they are only for removing tiny amounts of metal - so always use a light touch and a drop of oil. Fairly thin oil, as you want the microscopic swarf to float off the surface, not clog the cutting surface.

Patrick
:wave:

Thanks for the advice. I've never really needed to lap anything before, and must truthfully admit that I have no experience whatsoever with this sort of work, so the help is much appreciated!

If at all possible, could you post a photo of your extractor claw, though? I totally understand not wanting to post a photo of your action rim – I was tired when I posted that, don't want you disassembling your whole gun on my account! I think I might have some roughness on the face of the extractor claw, though not a burr, and it doesn't seem to impede pick-up of the rims. Do you think it's likely part of my issue, or do you think it's incidental?

Thanks again for all the help so far!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I would personally prefer to use a flat one in this case. The cutting surface is slightly flexible (because of the plastic backing) so that you can actually get the tip of the flat lap to follow a gradual curve. The curve along the receiver cutout rim is so gradual that with the oval one you may go in too deep and actually cut a slight depression. However, the rate of cutting is soooo slow that as long as you frequently wipe off the oil to check progress, you are unlikely to make that mistake. So either will do the job. Your worst enemy is impatience.

I have over the years acquired a number of these tools - flat, round, and oval. The oval one is excellent for sharpening knife blades to an almost razor edge. The flat one is invaluable for touching up burred trigger edges and the like, without cutting through case-hardening.
But remember - these are not metal files - they are only for removing tiny amounts of metal - so always use a light touch and a drop of oil. Fairly thin oil, as you want the microscopic swarf to float off the surface, not clog the cutting surface.

Patrick
:wave:

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Here is a photo of the follower, magazine and magazine floor plate from my Carl Gustaf.
Attachment 23443

As you can see, the follower sits roughly parallel to the floor plate. If your follower does not sit like this, slide the spring out of the floor plate and follower, and take a look at it.

And here is a photo of the spring alone.
Attachment 23444

Note the symmetrical "M" form If your magazine spring does not look like this, then it should be replaced. A kinked or twisted spring could be a cause of the feeding problem.

Patrick
:wave: