Target shooters . . . HELP ME PLEASE!

I would really like to understand what I am doing wrong. I have been trying to improve my shooting skills, or lack thereof. I’m not talking about hitting a fly at 1000 yards, just a nice group at 100. It seems like my results are contrary to what should be. When I shoot a more rapid rate of fire, my shot groups are tighter than if I take slow single or small groups of fire. As evidence the following 4 targets are all recent examples of my range time. All were shot on the same day, POA target center, from a seating bench rest, with my favorite M1 carbine.
#1 was shot at 50 yards, 15 rounds, slow single fire (shoulder rifle, aim, breath, squeeze, set rifle down, repeat).
#2 was shot at 50 yards, 15 rounds, group fire (shoulder rifle, aim, breath, squeeze, aim, breath, squeeze, aim, breath, squeeze . . . etc. until magazine empty)
#3 was shot at 100 yards, 15 rounds, group fire (shoulder rifle, aim, breath, squeeze, aim, breath, squeeze, aim, breath, squeeze . . . etc. until magazine empty)
#4 was shot at 100 yards, 15 rounds, slow 3 shot group fire (shoulder rifle, aim, breath, squeeze, repeat for 3 shots, set rifle down, repeat 3 shot groups until magazine empty)
Why does it seem that I get better groups, when I use a more rapid pace of fire?
#1
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10522_x1-1.jpg

#2
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10522_x1-1.jpg

#3
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10522_x1-1.jpg

#4
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...10522_x5-1.jpg

I know it sounds stupid, but during rapid fire is no time to think things like " Now i make all things right and shoot a bull" or else thoughts. Most time the problem is that shooters set themselve under pressure with their will to hit thebull, and they don´t notice it for themselve. Take your shooting position, prone ore sitting or what else, and now try to get into your own "Bubble" . That means don´t hear anything or see anything than the target. Aim and concentrate yourself only to the ironsights and the target. Control your breathing and when you think that all is perfect hold the concentration and pull the trigger slowly. Important is that you fire every single round at the same level of concentration and at the same way of breathing, after you have exhaled is a small time window that depends on your lungs it is around 2-5seconds where you are really quiet and have no movement. A great help is to practice it at home with a empty gun. I´m sure you will be able to get some good groups at 100m with that:thup:

Bottom line, all results are good shooting with an un-rested M1 Carbine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fn111557

Why does it seem that I get better groups, when I use a more rapid pace of fire? #1 #2 #3 #4

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Because you are trying too hard! Ease up!

Gunner has basically expressed the problem. You will get the best results when you are in a Zen-like semi-trance. The essence (at least for my simplified understanding - you can keep the philosophy) of Zen bowmanship is that the moment of release of the arrow is NOT a conscious "Now I'm going to let it go" but a moment in a continuous flow. If you are in that flow, you will get more consistent results and thus better grouping.

Likewise when shooting a rifle. There should be no "Now I'm going to pull the trigger" - because that is exactly what you will do - and pull the shot.

And do not overpractice - that is what you appear to have done. There is no statistical differnce in the grou p size between the first two targets, but by the last target, your eye muscles are tired, you are not seeing as well as at the start. I looks like you could have saved target 4.

Next time, fire five shots at a moderate pace WITHOUT CHECKING WHERE THEY WENT. Between shots, do NOT carry on looking through the sights. Look at the countryside (in poor light), or even close your eyes for half a minute (in bright light). You must prevent the ciliary muscle from being cramped. After the 5 shots, stop. Look at the group. Adjust the sights if necessary. Then do it again. Stop , check the group. Repeat for a MAXIMUM of 30 shots in one session, spread over an hour. More and faster will not help.

The breathing, as mentioned by Gunner, is a vital part of getting that Zen-like rhythm.
And if your trigger does not let you apply a gradual squeeze until the firing comes almost as a surprise, then get it seen to before you waste a lot of ammo.

The very first stage here is to do exactly the same thing every time. The second stage is to do the right thing every time. For that you need a recognized good shot who will look at your position while you shoot. Bad habits can be hard to correct!

Enough for the moment. For the next session, try what I suggested above - and let us all know how it worked out!

Patrick
:wave:

Also, shooter fatigue is a big factor. My best group will be the first or second. Half hour later, they will be double.

I use to shoot Glass bedded M-1 garands and a lot of semi autos and one rule still works....I don't know why....Shooting with the for end on the bags will get a lousy group...Even taking care to place the rifle at the same spot on the front bag, like bolt rifles ....Lousy groups....Taking the same rifle, ammo and all and placing the fore end in my hand and resting the back of my hand on the bags made a lot of improvement....try it....Charlie

I don´t use my hand to support my rifles while shooting of a sandbag, but the advice to use everytime the same spot at your rifle is very important. If you have a longer rifle like the Swiss G11 you can see how the grouping will get bader while changing the resting point at the forestock. The more you get in the direction of the muzzle the bader the grouping will be. BTW this is a good method to see if the barrel will touch the forestock at an point. You will see this if your grouping is suddenly wandering around at your target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by c east

I use to shoot Glass bedded M-1 garands and a lot of semi autos and one rule still works....I don't know why....Shooting with the for end on the bags will get a lousy group...Even taking care to place the rifle at the same spot on the front bag, like bolt rifles ....Lousy groups....Taking the same rifle, ammo and all and placing the fore end in my hand and resting the back of my hand on the bags made a lot of improvement....try it....Charlie

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Good advice!

There is a further point to be considered. If you shoot off a sandbag with the wood on the bag and then, later, with the rifle on your hand and using a sling (e.g., in a competition), the combination of sling tension and hand softness produces different dynamics than the hard bag and no sling. For athough a sandbag can give - if you push it - if you hit it with your hand you will appreciate that it is, in fact, quite hard for sudden movements. Which is also the reason why the position of the wood on the sandbag will affect grouping. The POI will also not necessarily be the same as when shooting without sandbag. Beacuse the mechanical resonances are different.

For this reason, I prefer to shoot practice rounds as Charlie describes. With sling as well. That way, I know that the POI will not be changed when shooting prone, without sandbag support (which I only do rarely, for physical reasons).

Patrick
:wave:

Seems that i´m the only one who had some bad experiences with using a sling. All my shooting goes to the deep left while using a sling, without the sling i can hold the black of the target easily. Is the tension to heavy or i´m to du§§?:dunno:

The whole subject is really laughable considering we're talking about M1 Carbines. Still, good shooting practices will improve any shooter's results.

There,s nothing wrong with these results,you should count your blessings doing this with an ironsided lill ól carbine....I know I do.......Cheers..

Agree, any of those groups would do the job.

Come to think about it, I always shoot with my off hand on the sand bag, cupping the fore-arm with the hand. My groups are half of when I tried without my hand in betwEEN.

Even though it's only a carbine, your groups appear to be either climbing or dropping, ocassionally getting a diagonal string.
In order to ascertain which it is, you will need to plot your shots for a couple of groups, from 1st shot to last, but not withstanding, if your group climbs as the barrel heats up, you have a bedding problem, diagonal strings are caused by either bedding and pressure points on forewood, muscleing (NOT ORIENTATING THE TARGET) or too tight a sling. This may be pulling the forewood sideways and touching the barrel. If the group dispersion is dropping, you are changing your head position by crawling up the rear sight, this reduces cheek tension on the stock and allows the butt to climb fractionally.
Its all about consistency, only make small changes when you are sure that the last one has not made a difference, if it has, and it is'nt a good one, go back a step and try something else.
There are to many variables when you talk about a firearm that was'nt really built for accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Even though it's only a carbine, your groups appear to be either climbing or dropping, ocassionally getting a diagonal string.
In order to ascertain which it is, you will need to plot your shots for a couple of groups, from 1st shot to last, but not withstanding, if your group climbs as the barrel heats up, you have a bedding problem, diagonal strings are caused by either bedding and pressure points on forewood, muscleing (NOT ORIENTATING THE TARGET) or too tight a sling. This may be pulling the forewood sideways and touching the barrel. If the group dispersion is dropping, you are changing your head position by crawling up the rear sight, this reduces cheek tension on the stock and allows the butt to climb fractionally.
Its all about consistency, only make small changes when you are sure that the last one has not made a difference, if it has, and it is'nt a good one, go back a step and try something else.
There are to many variables when you talk about a firearm that was'nt really built for accuracy.

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That is what you only can find out with correct aimed and made shots. A carbine can be a excellent shooter. My one is a good one and im sure that there are a lot more good ones out there, without the guess of their owners.

Center of chest accuracy that all you need and that is what the carbine doe,s it kills at that range.

This might help.
http://reloadbench.com/pdf/files/TargetRightHanded.pdf