I have one of these adjustable sights on my Winchester. I have been trying to find out who made them, with no luck. This sight does NOT have the numbers stamped on the side. Also, anyone know the dates of production for this model?
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I have one of these adjustable sights on my Winchester. I have been trying to find out who made them, with no luck. This sight does NOT have the numbers stamped on the side. Also, anyone know the dates of production for this model?
International Register Co.
I just took a quick look at War Baby! and on page 327 it's stated that this sight has been "occasionally observed" on the Winchester, but the H in a shield (Hemphill) is the "most commonly marked Winchester stamped sight." Quantity/SN Range: insufficient data. - Bob
My Winchester has a s/n of 11426XX. It believe it is a wartime refurbish done at Mt. Rainier Ord. As far as I have been able to identify, there is not a part on this rifle that could not have been there in 1944. The stock is a 1943-44 Underwood (GHD on top of UEF in a long narrow rectangle with crossed cannons), the barrel is an early undated Winchester with an intregal gas port. Also has the Winchester (WP) proof stamp on the barrel along with the small w two inches above the proof mark. The ordnance bomb is where it should be on a Winchester, on the side of the gas port. The recoil plate is a Wadsworth made for Inland (WI), and the bolt is a round Inland stamped 4-I. The slide is an early edition Underwood, and the trigger housing is also Inland. The hammer spring is the earlier edition 22 band spring and the firing pin is a Winchester. The Mag release is a revision 4 with the underlined M that was superceded by revision 5 in May of 1945. It has a type III barrel band with a bayonet lug marked with a D inside a diamond (Donaldson made June 1944-April 1945). The parkerizing is very good, but not uniform, showing wear areas where you would expect them. I do not believe it has been reparked. The sight is the issue of me. I believe it was an upgrade from the old flip sight when it was refurbished at MRO, but I can find no dates of production for the ones that did not have the part number stamped into the sight. From what has been posted earlier in the thread, my belief that the sight was available for upgrade in 1944. Am I wrong? Also, I do know that Mt. Rainier Ordnance WAS doing reworks of small arms during the war and sending them to the fromt line troups in the pacific in 1944-45. Thoughts, please.
The magazine catch with the underlined M went into production in May 1945.Quote:
Originally Posted by rdpinwa
The IR Co sight was without a doubt in production in 1944. When it was put on your carbine is anyones guess. Curious about MR carbine rebuilds in 1944-45, how did you come across that info?
The adjustable rear sight really was not available for upgrades on carbines being rebuilt during the war. There just were not enough available for production let alone rebuilding. Only 1/3 of Inlands production right to the end had adjustable rear sights. As to Mt. Rainier doing rebuilding during the war. I would hazard a guess that it was more of a repair then rebuild process at that time during the war. The great rebuilding of carbines started about late 1945 and continued into the 1950's.
That is where I got the info on MRO rebuilding during the war. I definately agree with you that most of the rebuilts were definately post WWII, but not all.
[URL="http://http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=9028"http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=9028[/URL]
I will post shortly (when I can find it) the government document stating the Rev 4 underlined M catch was superceded by the rev 5 (unmarked). It is dated May 16, 1945.
Check out this link regarding the Rev 4 catch.
Carbine magazine catches - CMP Forums
That document, which I posted, is dated 29 Oct 1952. It references MWO ORD B28-4,released on 16 May 1945. The M magazine catch wasn't standardized until after the 30 round magazine was. Th e30 round magazine was standardized in April 1945.Quote:
Originally Posted by rdpinwa
Mt. Rainier was an export depot supporting the Seattle Port of Embarkation during WWII, so I would be surprised if they did any significant small arms rebuild until postwar. There were several fully equipped base commands in the Pacific Ocean Areas, so it wouldn't make much sense to ship an item several thousand miles to rebuild when the facilities existed much closer to the front. Salvage work could be done in the field by the division ordnance company on a high percentage of wrecked small arms. During wartime production it was arguably cheaper to make a new $35 carbine than to clean, pack, ship, track, unpack, evaluate, and rebuild various bits and pieces of used ones.
As an export depot it is possible they might have done simple repairs on small arms in the hands of troops staging for a Seattle departure. This would be mainly units going to Alaska - a very small percentage of the Pacific total. Besides, most of Ordnance Department effort was vehicles, ammo, and artillery.
From what I have read, there were, at one time, 150,000 U.S. Troups in Alaska. Hardly a small percentage. The Aleutians were one of the first battle grounds with the Japanese and a lot of material was sent there. When many of the troups were drawn down from Alaska and sent to other duty stations, amy father being one of them, their material was shipped back to the states. When it was returned to the states for repair it went through MRO, which was responsible for much of the munitions and supplies that went to the Pacific. You may be correct, but at the time Ft. Lewis was not some small backwater supply depot. At it's hight there were over 150 buildings and warehouses and 2500 employees just working for MRO alone. With its easy access to railroads and the ports of Tacoma and Seattle, they were in a perfect position to play a major role in arming our troops in the Pacific.
I live right next to Ft. Lewis. So close, in fact, that when they fire those 155s and 105s at the range, and the weather is right, the concussion literally rattles the pictures on my wall. I had planned on going to the Ft. Lewis Museum this week, but my wife (who works on the base) tells me the Museum is currently closed for renovation, but should be opening again soon. It is my plan to go there and see if I can find further, more definative information as to the role that MRO played in WWII.
As for now, I respectfully agree to disagree.
The Carbine Club Newsletter (years ago) had an article on an Army Division in Europe, during the war, upgrading 5,000 carbines with Adjustable Sights. I do not remember the details.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...magcatch-1.jpg
The entire Alaskan District reached 148,167 troops in August '43 according to the Army's own published account. Before and after that month it never got within 9,000 of that - and fell rapidly. In August '43 the US Army had 1,919,7770 overseas - putting Alaska at about 7% and falling. Six months later the percentage had dropped to well below 4%.
Looking for mentions in the Army Green Books, it looks like MRO was overwhelmingly involved in vehicle maintenance and repair. With the extra need for road building/construction equipment for Alaska that makes sense. Also, according to the Green Books, a brief effort was made mid-war to combine maintenance operations at existing depots. This attempt flopped and almost all of the districts returned to specialized maintenance centers. MRO's expansion began in '42 when Ordnance took over responsibility for vehicles from QM.
WWII logistics are of particular interest to me, so if you run across any primary source material, I'd be pleased to hear of it. I have yet to see any breakdown on domestic depot operations anywhere showing wartime small arms repair activity. In 1945 MTO published a history of that theater's ordnance activities - it claimed repairs on over 2 million small arms. With those kind of numbers being worked overseas there's just not much left to work on stateside (until the postwar rebuilds). Probably take two or three days at the National Archives to paw through the end-of-war reports which were created for publication, but never got done. The Army Green Books are filled with citations to these reports.
Bill, that was CCNL #323; the unit was the 4th Armored Division. And, unlike some of the other mentions, this is from unit combat diaries, not personal reminiscences.
firstflabn, I agree with you that it would seem to be nonsense to send weapons all the way from The South or Central Pacific all the way to Tacoma for a rebuild. From what I have been able to glean, and it's not much (one article), MRO mostly rebuild vehicles (according to the article 14,000 in 1943). If they indeed did refurbish small arms during the war, they probibly came from Alaska. I, being a research trained psychologist, am not satisfied with the reference source I have either. Thus, my desire to go to Ft. Lewis Museum and see what I can find. It is enough to make my head hurt. Will let you know what I find when the darn place reopens.
While the carbine may have been a war time refurbish done at Mt. Rainier it is also likely it was done at any time before 1963. Then again, the stock could have been on a carbine that went through Mt. Rainier mated to the action years later.
rd, I see we're more alike than different. I have gone through this same self-inflicted torture on a Benicia-stamped stock on an 03A3 I have. Benicia appears to have served the SF port of Embarkation similar to MRO's relationship to Seattle, so for me it's 'round up the usual suspects.' I came no closer to a final resolution there, but it was easier for me to find the same pages in the Army Green Books this time. Their treatment is, of course, more general than our question, so the hints are there, but no listing of which wartime depots specialized in small arms.
To expand on a comment of yesterday: the Green Books say that when ordnance inherited the vehicle maintenance/repair/rebuild duty from QM in '42 there were over a million vehicles involved. Bet that kept 'em busy for awhile. Assuming my conclusions are reasonably close to the actual circusmstances, I would not be surprised if both MRO and Benicia were equipped to do postwar rebuilds with gear that came back from overseas depots. I have seen a document showing either the Central Pacific Base Command or the SW Pacific Base Command (forget which) parkerized 3000 small arms in preparation for the Okinawa operation. If you can go that far you are doing one step more than swapping out defective parts. For all we know so far, MRO's postwar small arms program may have consisted of no more than part swapping. Bet we'll get closer to knowing with you interest and skills. Keep hunting.
Maybe you're 'closer' to your answer than I thought thirty minutes ago. Looks like the Seattle Branch of the National Archives has some records:
Record Group 338
Records of U.S. Army Commands
Administrative History
The present system of U.S. Army commands, which are organized both functionally and geographically, emerged from a War Department reorganization of February 28, 1942.
Records Description
Dates: 1940-63
Volume: 18 cubic feet
Records of the following depots:
Auburn General Depot, Auburn, Washington;
445th Quartermaster Depot, Ft. Lawton, Washington;
Madigan Army Hospital, Ft. Lewis, Washington;
Mt. Rainier Ordnance Depot, Tacoma, Washington;
Seattle Quartermaster Depot, Seattle, Washington;
Umatilla Depot, Hermiston, Oregon.
The records document quartermaster activities, and consist of general orders, organizational planning files, unit history files, and general and administrative correspondence files.
Doesn't say how much is WWII vs. postwar, but couldn't hurt to pay them a visit. It's confusing, but another reorganization put these depots under regional Service Commands; I believe Seattle was in the 9th.
Maybe you'll find info on postwar carbine rebuilds there. Please let me hear thru email or PM. Good luck and thanks.
firstflabn, how are you finding this info? It has been driving me nuts trying to get info! You very well may be right with the 1963 issue. One thing is certain, I believe, is that this weapon was not an import and was most likely a first issue to the public from supplies warehoused in the states for years. I did find out the weapon was originally made in early July 1943 by Winchester, or course. It was rebuilt sometime at MRO, but when is the issue, I suppose. Do you have any information about where I would find a copy of the original MWO ORD B28 W-4 originally dated May 16, 1945?
I've been at the military history research game for 30 years, though only the last four or five with WWII subjects (with the carbine foremost). I sometimes know where look and other times I puzzle out a search plan based on understanding how the organizations worked. Logistics in particular leads to insights on combat. We're all still basically ten year old boys with a foxhole in the backyard and a helmet liner hanging on the bedpost, but logistics happens before the shooting starts.
If you visit the Archives, don't get discouraged if you don't find it all the first trip. See the first visit as a scouting mission to figure out how things are arranged. The collection description says 18 cubic feet - that's alot; probably 60 or 70 of the four inch wide Hollinger boxes worth. I was excited to see the listing for unit histories - organization structure could give you the opportunity to prove me wrong with nothing more than one sheet with an org chart. And you know the military is going to show command structure. Hopefully you'll find bean count-type reports showing quantities of work done in various categories - maybe presented different ways.
On your mag catch question - I've never seen the MWO, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was only two pages - one sheet front and back covering the mag catch and the mag catch plunger/spring. You can find the requirements incorporated into the February 1953 edition of TM9-1276 which is all over the internet.
And one more for the Seattle Branch:
Record Group 156
Records of the Office of the Chief of Ordnance
Administrative History
The Ordnance Department was established as an independent bureau of the Department of War by an act of May 14, 1812. It was responsible for the procurement and distribution of ordnance and equipment, the maintenance and repair of equipment, and the development and testing of new types of ordnance. The Department was abolished in 1962, and its functions were transferred to the U.S. Army Material Command.
Records Description
Dates: 1940-50
Volume: 6 cubic feet
Records of the following installations:
Beaver, Oregon, Ammunition Storage Point;
Mount Rainier, Washington, Ordnance Depot;
Umatilla, Oregon, Ordnance Depot.
The records relate to administration, and are primarily correspondence, installation histories, and program files.