WWII bomber that crashed underwent maintenance over weekend - chicagotribune.com
The thread on G503 has some great photos of the Liberty Belle.
G503.com Message Forums View topic - Dang It, B17 crash and burns in Aurora, IL
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WWII bomber that crashed underwent maintenance over weekend - chicagotribune.com
The thread on G503 has some great photos of the Liberty Belle.
G503.com Message Forums View topic - Dang It, B17 crash and burns in Aurora, IL
It is indeed... we can never get the history back. Imagine surviving all those combat missions to literally crash and burn ( well, the other way around really ) just pottering around the skies. Hopefully there is enough left to help get another war bird back in the air.
Yes, that's all that's left is some parts. Very, very sad indeed. It's wonderful the crew survived though.
I've been in the CAF for fifteen years, and although I really love to keep them flying I also see the problem with losing irreplaceable pieces of history and I kind of sit on the fence anymore.
The CAF has lost many aircraft and crew over the years and I lost a friend a few years ago.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01077-1.jpg
Ultimately the CAF may not be to too far in the future grounded just because of insurance costs.
It may be for the best to ground the originals. Having seen what happens to aluminum alloy that's common to airframes after 60 years, well, it's kind of scary. Intergranular corrosion on structures 0.020" to 0.032" thick leaves them quite brittle. Hard to tell visually if the clad is still reasonably intact.
Time to build some new ones!
I've got a page full of pics of the Liberty Belle from a trip to my area. You can see it HERE.
Attachment 23922
Bob
https://www.milsurps.com/images/tact...isc/pencil.png
That's a real shame ... :(
At an Oshkosh event a few years ago, I went up for a flight in "Aluminum Overcast" and got to log 1/2 hour in my pilot's log book.
What an experience and it gave me a real sense of what it was like for those who flew them 70 years ago.
Regards,
Doug
More recent bad aviation news......
Pilot Failure Results in Crash Landing in Cold Bay - ktuu.com
Goodyear blimp –advertising safety – crashes - CSMonitor.com
Regardless what they say about being 'safer than driving', flying inherently a dangerous business and you have to be 100%, 100% of the time.
By far the most accidents, even in the old planes comes right back to pilot error.
Another email from one of my ATC buddies -
(See, they don't spend ALL their time on duty sleeping! - Much of the time they surf the web!) ;)
We may have lost a B17 (the Liberty Bell), but another has left a dusty old museum and returned to the skies! Check out the nice video on the website and also follow the link to read about the flight to her new home in Virginia.
Chuckie the B-17 arrives at Museum | Military Aviation Museum
This is a great piece written by Ray Fowler, Chief Pilot.
First, let me start off by sincerely thanking everyone for the outpouring of support that we are receiving. I am sorry that I have not yet had the opportunity to return the many phone calls, text or e-mails that I am receiving offering to help. Again, thank you for all of the kind words that we are receiving and for incredible offers to help emotionally, financially and/or with the recovery process. I hope this statement will help fill in a few details that everyone is wondering about that led to the loss of our “Liberty Belle”.
Yesterday morning, both our P-40 and B-17 were scheduled to fly from Aurora, Illinois to Indianapolis, Indiana. We were in Aurora for the weekend as a part of our scheduled tour. Over the course of the previous week, we completed a scheduled 25-hour inspection on the B-17 which was completed by Saturday. On Saturday, the weather stayed below the required ceiling to give any passenger flights, however the B-17 flew in the morning on a routine training proficiency flight, performing several patterns. Following the flight, other maintenance issues arose that required us to cancel our Sunday flying schedule for repairs. The maintenance performed has not been, in any way, associated to the chain of events that led to Monday’s fateful flight, but is being considered in the preliminary investigation. However, due to the media’s sensational (mis)reporting, there is a large amount of misinformation that continues to lead the news.
Here is what we do know… Flying in the left seat of the B-17 was Capt. John Hess. John has been flying our Liberty Belle since 2005 and one of our most experienced B-17 pilots. He is an active Delta Air Lines Captain with over 14,000 hours of flying experience and flys a variety of vintage WWII aircraft. In the right seat was Bud Sittic. While Bud is new to the Liberty Foundation this year, he is also incredibly experienced with over 14,000 hours of flying time in vintage and hi-performance aircraft. He is a retired Captain with Delta Air Lines.
The news misidentified the P-40 as flying chase during the accident. I was flying our P-40, however I had departed 20 minutes prior to the B-17’s takeoff on the short flight to Indianapolis to setup for the B-17’s arrival. The aircraft flying chase was a T-6 Texan flown by owner Cullen Underwood. Cullen is one of our rated B-17 Captains and an experienced aviator tagging along as a support ship.
The takeoff of both aircraft was uneventful and proceeded on-course southeast. Prior to exiting Aurora’s airport traffic area, the B-17 crew and passengers began investigating an acrid smell and started a turn back to the airport. Almost immediately thereafter, Cullen spotted flames coming from the left wing and reported over the radio that they were on fire.
As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While it is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.
Directly below the B-17 was a farmer’s field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine’s fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location.
Unlike the sensational photos that you have all seen of the completely burned B-17 on the news, you will see from photos taken by our crew that our Liberty Belle was undamaged by the forced landing and at the time of landing, the wing fire damage was relatively small. The crew actually unloaded bags, then had the horrible task of watching the aircraft slowly burn while waiting for the fire trucks to arrive. There were high hopes that the fire would be extinguished quickly and the damage would be repairable. Those hopes were diminished as the fire trucks deemed the field too soft to cross due to the area’s recent rainfall. So while standing by our burning B-17 and watching the fire trucks parked at the field’s edge, they sadly watched the wing fire spread to the aircraft’s fuel cells and of course, you all have seen the end result. There is no doubt that had the fire equipment been able to reach our aircraft, the fire would have been quickly extinguished and our Liberty Belle would have been repaired to continue her worthwhile mission.
Let me go on the record by thanking the flight crew for their professionalism. Their actions were nothing short of heroic and their quick thinking, actions and experience led to a “successful” outcome to this serious in-flight emergency. John and Bud (and Cullen) did a remarkable job under extreme circumstances and performed spectacularly. While the leading news stories have repeatedly reported the “crash” of our B-17, fact is they made a successful forced landing and the aircraft was ultimately consumed by fire. Airplanes are replaceable but people are not and while the aircraft’s loss is tragic, it was a successful result.
This leads me into discussing the exceptional safety record of the Boeing B-17 and to hopefully squash the naysayers who preach we should not be flying these types of aircraft. Since we first flew the “Liberty Belle” in December of 2004, we have flown over 20,000 passengers throughout the country and if you count our historic trip to Europe in 2008, worldwide. Of the other touring B-17s, some of which that have been touring for over 20 years, they have safely flown hundreds of thousands of people. The aircraft’s safety record is spectacular and I am certain the overall cause of our issue, which is under investigation, will not tarnish that safety record. In fact, as many of you know, other B-17 have suffered significant damage (although not as bad as ours!), only to be re-built to fly again. From a passenger carrying standpoint, I can think of few aircraft that offer the same level of safety as the 4-engine “Flying Fortress”. As mentioned earlier, in-flight fires are extremely rare and certainly could affect any powered aircraft under certain circumstances. I would put my children today in any of the other touring B-17s to go fly. I suggest to anyone that was thinking of doing so when a B-17 visits your area to do so without giving our loss any thought.
There is wild speculation going on as to the cause of our fire and the affect to other operators. Please let the investigation run its course and report the findings. The NTSB and FAA were quickly on the scene and we are working closely with them to aid in the investigation. As soon as we receive some additional information, we will release it via the website http://www.libertyfoundation.org/.
The ultimate question remains, where does the Liberty Foundation go from here? After the investigation and recovery, we will determine our options. We are still committed to the restoration and flying of World War II aircraft. Again, we appreciate the support and people offering to help get us back flying.
Please check back for updates. I will close by thanking everyone that made our tour so successful. From the first day of the B-17’s restoration, thank you for all of you who labored to get her flying over the initial restoration years and to everyone that has worked on her out on tour since. Thank you to the crewmembers, tour coordinators and volunteers who gave up weekends and countless hours to support her on the road. And finally, thank you to the passengers, donors and media patrons that flew aboard and everyone who supported our cause. Hopefully, this will not be the end of the story, but a new beginning.
Regards,
Ray Fowler
The Liberty Foundation, Chief Pilot
Chuckie now lives ten miles from me. I've got to go visit!
She sat in a dank, dirty hangar about ten miles from me for the past twenty years Bob (Ft Worth)
The owner 'Doc' was bound to a wheel chair and it rarely flew due to maintenance needs late in his life.
The wing spar AD that all B-17's had to go through took forever to complete. (Huge job)
Doc wouldn't let anyone else fly as PIC and when it did fly he flew it right up until just before he passed away. (Wheel chair and all)
Doc bought the B-17 many years ago surplus and it was his to do what he wanted. 'Chuckie' is Doc's widow, which he named the plane after, and she sold it for an undisclosed sum as they had agreed to after he. 'Chuckie' Hosper is one of the nicest ladies I met in my years of being around warbirds and I'm happy everything worked out how they planned it.
A few years ago when they got her into the air again they attended an annual fly-in we had every year at LNC just south of Dallas. The last time I saw her fly.
It took me a minute to find these on my old hard drive -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...613Large-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...608Large-1.jpg
The young lady 'bombardier' was all smiles as they prepared to taxi away for their short hop back to Meacham Field in Ft Worth
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...opyLarge-1.jpg
This was the last time I saw her fly as she passed over heading back to FTW
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3617Copy-1.jpg
I'm happy Chuckie has found a new home with funding and dedicated crew to take care of her.
You better take good care of her Bob! I did my part for the past 15 years! ;)
Looks like Chuckie is a G that had surgery to make her look like an E. Wonder if she was used in the movie "Memphis Belle"? How will they find a chin turret. Wait... I think one just became available. They'll also need a ball turret and some other parts from the look of it. Rest assured - this bunch maintains their planes in museum condition - but flying. I bet they'll take her to a new level.
Bob
And..... TAKE LOTS OF PHOTOS!!!
How many airworthy B17s are there left? For all the thousands produced, I understand there is only one airworthy B29 ( FiFi ) left.
If you need new parts I know a fellow making some. Even has a form for the nose "glass". Last time I saw him he was tooling up to make parts for the tail gunner's area.
Yes, 'FIFI' is owned by the Commemorative Air Force (formerly known as Confederate Air Force) and it's the only airworthy B-29 in existence.
In the early years of the CAF they tried to find an example of one for years and the government reported that there were none remaining other than a few in museums. All of the others were thought to have been cut up and melted down years before. One day a member of the CAF was flying as a commercial airline pilot at high altitude and spotted what he thought was a lone B-29 in a remote desert area at China Lake. After investigation they found it really was an intact B-29 in a remote location and it was among other derelict aircraft that were being used as targets. The founding members of the CAF quickly contacted the government and struck a deal to save the aircraft and only had a small window to remove it from the area. They found that it was in pretty poor condition with missing gauges etc but they were able to patch it up enough to get it running and Lefty Gardner flew it back to Harlingen, TX under a special ferry permit.
There used to be an on-line account of the full story but it's no longer there, so I wrote an abbreviated account from memory -
The link was from the old B-29 squadron than maintained it in Midland, TX and it's recently been moved to a new squadron of the CAF located in North Dallas. I suppose the old squadron just closed it's web site. Here's a link to the new B-29 group -
CAF's B-29 / B-24 Squadron
Edit:
It looks like the new squadron has some of the history on their web site but you have to be a member to access it.
Their new site is polished and professional. The old story of finding FIFI written from the, then CAF Chief Check Pilot wasn't there.
Apparently the CAF SBD has dramas. Just now got done looking at it. Looks like major oil leak coating the rear flight surfaces. Ailerons and some fairings are off. If it's in for repaint it'll be a little sad as it has a nice weathered appearance right now.
Friend did some photos. May be able to post a couple sometime soon.
I think there are 13 flying.Quote:
Originally Posted by xa-coupe
Harlan, I was just reading the story you are referring to. You can find it HERE on Pelican's perch.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
Cheers!
Bob
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...da367354-1.jpg
---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------
The rarer they get, the more folk ought to consider building new. We did it with P-40's, making factory interchangable parts built up on factory sstyle jigs. But to effectively build new jigs, it's best to use existing good assemblies.
B17s are do-able. Egos are the biggest impediment.
Are you talking about the oil in this photo? All these radials spew oil constantly and have to be wiped down after every flight. It looks like someone started to wipe it off after it's last flight, but didn't do much. You need to put a big pan under the engine as soon as you stop flying to catch all the residual oil that drips out. Not usual to have a quart or so in the pan all the time. Each cylinder is on it's own in a radial motor and they just leak constantly. You chase the worse leaks, but really worry when it stops leaking (because you're out of oil)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Cowlings come off routinely - They're under constant maintenance and they were always like that, even when new.
Are you talking about the dive breaks? (Do you have more photos?) I just checked the Dixie Wing Schedule and the SBD is still on schedule for appearances through the next few weeks.
It's not likely it'll be repainted any time soon. They did a major livery change to the tri color early scheme about ten years ago and it should remain that way for years. It costs a small fortune to repaint and it isn't usually done unless it's completely worn out.
That's good to hear. Must have been some "minor" control surface maintenance. But the oil leak was more than usual, so... It's hard to get much info at 3AM
Yah, I've worked around "round motors" a bit. Used to be a freight doggy bunch flying C47s and DC3s at an airport where I was doning Warbird stuff. They owned the oldest DC3 on the planet, but it's not flying. Oh, and THREE C54/DC4 Carvair conversions!
I guess my point is that at this point these airframes are a nonreplacable consumable resource. They WILL become increasingly un-airworthy due to corrosion, vibration, hard landings, fires, powerplant failures, pilot error, hail, hurricanes, etc. etc.
To build new, we need good assmblies and parts. The factory drawings aren't enough!
BTW, I've built stuff enough for various aviation museums (static display) to be highly unimpressed. No, more like shocked and disgusted, but it's been a while- long enough to not go on a huge rant.:bitch:
Keep 'em flying, but think to the future- you'll need some more airframes. Or does it all go virtual?:thdown:
ETA, no NOT the dive brakes! Ailerons. Much less complex! (I can't remember if they used my tooling to do new dive brake skins back in the '90s or not. I did a static set that hangs in the Naval Air Museum wall, and some for a "real" flying SBD, but don't remember whose- may have only been a partial skin... Sorry, rambling! Trying to remember old stuff!
ETA2: Note the lack of control surfaces at the far left of the photo outboard of the dive brakes:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...06/SBD21-1.jpg
I did this stuff seven days a week for eight years, but it was killing my health and pocketbook!
I think I know what you mean about the parts. Good aviation fabricators can build almost anything if they have the original part to work from (or what's left of it) -
There's a few who are fantastic. There's a place in Texas called Ezell's where most everyone here farms out important parts. I've seen some sections of skin with compound curves, etc and good aviation fabricators can make brand new airworthy parts from scratch that look like carbon copies. (They're expensive though)
You're correct about corrosion too. Aluminum 'cancer' is a real problem with a lot of old parts, and many are'nt easy to access to inspect. These planes were built at a time when they weren't intended to last more than a short time and they didn't design in a lot of inspection plates, etc just for inspecting for corrosion. It's common to need to drill out rivets on these old planes so you can see inside. Lot's of wing spars have been rebuilt from scratch by good fabricators.
The folk in the US have been lagging far behind the restorers in the UK where critical parts like spars and wing builds are done in jigs to ensure proper geometry. I know of one early P40 that has poor flying qualities because the wings were build on barrels. There's not only straightness to consider, but the airfoi should have a slight "twist" as it goes outboard as designed. Hard to get right or consistant from side to side w/o guides and locating points!Quote:
Originally Posted by cafdfw
Hopefully the situation has improved over the past ten years.
Some minor updating and some "leftovers" that have turned up:
The SBD WAS in for a new coat of paint, but I don't have new photos.
Meanwhile, this old scrap bit of aluminum was found that was used when I was testing the SBD dive brake hole punching and forming tools that I was making. (Tools ended up I don't know where, sadly- the owner died some time ago.)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...07/SBD11-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7/SBD111-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff052-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff053-1.jpg
Also found some P40 brackets that are still "in process":
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff047-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tuff0431-1.jpg
(Copied off an original forging- It just doesn't look the same when merely programmed into a CNC.-It's an "analog" part. Plus, I "upsized" it about 10% where possible to compensate for the lack of the originals' forged grain structure- It also is of stronger 7075 aluminum which we shotpeened as well- to help life in a high vibration enviroment. )
Made a blue million of these little Curtiss bits, too, many using a 24" universal shaper, which was kinda slow for larger runs:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff043-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff048-1.jpg
Four thumbs up "smilies" if you can specify where the above parts go!
If you have "straight" original parts- even corroded, you can build new, using the old as patterns. But wing and fuselage jigs need to be made before the last airframe of whatever type becomes "bent", destroyed or otherwise unaccessible. Drawings just won't get you where you need to go.