De-activated!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just trawling the web to see what's about and have seen a significant number of ads. where people discuss the Enfields they are selling in much the same way as members on this forum do. Then, without warning, I see the word de-activated almost as though it is a good thing!.
I am left with a sense of incredulity and anguish. "Why would anyone deactivate an Enfield?".

Then I thought of what a friend said recently; "Why do you need live firing guns when you could collect them de-activated".

Is anyone here collecting de-activated Enfields or getting them de-activated?.

Certainly not............. but with the anti gun hysteria that surrounds us these days I am not supprised. De-acts can also be more valuable to the seller as there is potentially a much bigger market!!!!!

To me it's like owning a live horse or a stuffed horse. The stuffed horse can be owned by a person whose land lord won't allow living livestock on one's property. It won't ever need feed, medical attention, to be cleaned up after or cared for. One can put a saddle on it and climb up on it and sit, while pretending that it's a living horse they're sitting on while they enjoy the imagined feel of sitting in the saddle on a live horse. Or one can live in a place that allows one to own, raise, ride and care for living horses. I suppose that given the option to having nothing, being able to at least have a stuffed horse in your living room or out in your yard would certainly appeal to some. Sadly, not everyone in the world is allowed to have a living horse, least of all a stuffed one. Some can only look at horses in pictures or go to a zoo or a ranch to observe them. Same way with guns. Some are allowed to own a non functioning deactivated gun and others aren't even allowed to do that. They are told it's for their own good of course...and for the good of their society according to their laws. After awhile, the people under those laws are just grateful that they can own a stuffed horse...or a deactivated firearm.

I'm a shooter first, so a de-activated Enfield would do me no good....

Well, you could also collect cars without engines.... If I don't use it, that doesn't mean that I don't need it not to be working properly. How could one see the difference between the numbers of fields and lands within different versions of one rifle with having a plugged barrel? The perfect collectors item is something as it left the factory. And nearly everything left the factory working :)

Many people do buy de-acts here - just as they buy 80% receivers to make dummy machine guns on in the US. And plenty of rich people collect cars which they never intend to drive. If you can't justify possession of working firearms to the government then it's that, or look at them in a book. And most of the world is like this. USA is the exception, not us.

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Originally Posted by Buccaneer

De-acts can also be more valuable to the seller as there is potentially a much bigger market!!!!!

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That is certainly the case. I blew up a Webley Mk.VI last year (Stupid Boy!) but I have had it deacted and intend to use the proceeds of its sale to fund another revolver that actually goes bang!

Our local bar has a wall full of cap & ball pistols, all of them fakes, except one. It's a lovely double, like a Howdah but about .36cal perfect condition, except of course ..... it's been de-activated. What a waste, but then think of all the history that has been destroyed by the British pistol ban (including my S&W 27 and 41). I don't want a gun that won't go bang, but of course, there is an ever growing army of 're-enactors' out there who want to wear and display all the proper kit, including arms. Restrictive laws and of course the law of supply & demand have created a market where these 'emasculated' guns are often worth more than the real McCoy. Even with a world economic crisis, there still seems to be plenty of dosh for big boys toys.

I own a de-activated 1919 Enfield No1 Mk3 *. I'm certain it's definitely not a collecting item since it's one of millions. I bought it when i was 16 because i didn't need a licence for it and it sits in my wardrobe. The guy i bought it from only welds up the ones which aren't fit for anything except wall ornaments.

Since then, i'am now 20 and own a 1918 Enfield No1 Mk3* as a shooter. I bought it from the same guy and looked through a few hundred SMLE's to find a good one. Found some great examples to be deactivated. Some had nearly smooth bore barrels and parts missing everywhere. But if you put a rod down the barrel and weld it up, it would still bring a smile to someone's face sitting on their wall.

I'm glad that here, I have the right to buy and own as many rifles and pistols as I want and store them however I see fit. It's nobody's business how many guns my wife and I have here at home. We can also posses as much ammo as we want to have around here too. All of our guns are fully functional. It's easy for people to take these rights for granted, but the U.S. truly is the last bastion of freedom for the common man. How could anyone trust a Govt. that didn't trust the people? No, I think it's better to be dead than to be a subject.
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---------- Post added at 11:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

We've got Real horses around here too! LOL!

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I really wish all the people who are thankful that they are still "allowed" to own deacts would go to their nearest decent bookstore and get a copy of Volume 1 of Blackstone. It's still in print, photoengraved copies of the 1750-or-whatever edition, has interesting thoughts such as "if Liberty is ever destroyed in this country, it will be a Parliament which does it".

He says that the Common Law is the basis for all Law and that Statutes of Parliament may only ENLARGE upon the Common Law, they may NOT restrict or supplant it, and that any Statute which is contrary to the Common Law or limits the Common Law is null and void and of no force to whatever extent it limits or abrogates the Common Law.

He also says that humans have four inalienable human rights but that the FIFTH right, the right to possess and use weapons, is the NATURAL right which underpins all the others.

That's not me speaking: that's the Lord Chief Justice of England speaking.

Too bad people don't read him a little more often.
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Some people have no choice, and just do as they are told.


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I rationalise the work by considering what they would look like if they weren't neutered . They would be melted down!

One of my customers got a bit upset recently because I refused to deactivate & sell him an all matching 1914 LSA and he had a Firearms Licence !!!

wow that's a bit harsh.

Over here they just need the barrel welded up with a rod down the middle and a drill hole half way down the barrel with a weld. The firing pins are broken, the bolt face welded and the bolt guide welded just under the charger bridge so you can't take the bolt out. I got to the weld under the charger bridge with a chainsaw file and now i can remove the bolt.

I have deactivated a number of Enfields for people who want them that way. Primarily it is vehicle collectors (Bren carriers, CMPs or jeeps) to fill the gun racks on their vehicles for public displays. That way, they are not subject to safe storage or display regulations. Normally I try to use lesser quality guns, and usually with the Indian wood sets that were so cheap not that long ago.

My own collection of guns includes a mix of live and deacts. The deacts are usually things like the various MGs and SMGs that I would not otherwise be able to own in Canada.

I wish the purchasers of deacts would be satisfied with plastic replicas or just put up a life-size poster of the Enfield on the wall. Deactivating these rifles is like buying tiger balls... it just leads to more poached tigers. They are sustaining the market for these ruined guns by buying them.

Here's one of the things that outlawing active Enfields leads to. Sort of like killing the American buffalo herds to get their tongues. Sad...please click on the link below.

Support display stand for Enfield N°1 mk3 bayonet | eBay

That's disgusting.

Note that the seller (in France) lists "More than 10 available."

They're copies made of painted resin.

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They're copies made of painted resin.

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If that's the case, then I have officially regained my appetite, and can go enjoy my breakfast! :)

Thanks for pointing that out.

Me too! Thanks.

I never really understand why anyone would be stupid enough to pay twice the price for a deactivated rifle compared to a working example.

You can apply for a firearms licence as a collector. As I understand from my Firearms Liaison Officer, the only downside of this is that you have very limited allowances for purchasing and holding ammunition.

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Originally Posted by Fred G.

Here's one of the things that outlawing active Enfields leads to.

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If you mean the UK, live rifles are not "outlawed" here - one just needs a license (Firearms Certificate). Its just that some people can't be arsed to apply for one and take the easy road.

Well here's a strange and unusual one for you, only slightly off track CONVERTED Lee Enfields. converted to the .22 AIR cartidge system, these in the UK are now section 5 (1a) firearms, so you cant sell them on etc even sec 5 dealers cant touch them. probably being sacreligeous even mentioning them hereabouts lol, just thought it might be a small nugget of interest...which is worst? scenario

Whilst we have pretty strict firearms legislation in the UK it is certainly possible to obtain the licence for manually operated rifles as collector's items or for shooting. You have to show 'good reasons' for their acquisition, have secure storage (eg a concealed security cabinet), and an approved place to use them if they are to be fired. Also supply addresses of two referees for your character, have no criminal record, supply four photos etc. If your justification is target shooting the police will check your usage with the rifle club. Then you have to pay a £50 fee for the first 5 years and go through the process again every 5 years. This is worthwhile if you are seriously interested.
However our deactivation standards for bolt action rifles are not as severe as in some countries: the barrel has to be slit, plugged, and secured to the receiver with a welded pin so that it cannot easily be replaced. The bolt lugs are weakened, firing pin tip cut off, and receiver feed ramp cut through. Externally the appearance of the rifle is unchanged, the bolt can be manipulated and the gun field stripped and dry fired. As a non-firearm a de-act can be displayed in your living room, den or whatever without restriction. You would be ill-advised to walk about the street carrying it uncovered however as a police 'armed response vehicle' would probably be summoned!
Many thousands of these de-acs have been sold over the last 24 years since they were put on a proper legal footing and they enable people to collect and enjoy guns without the hassle of licencing, and sell them on easily (and often profitably) when necessary. Most of the Lee-Enfields are not rare: often tired and worn out re-imports from overseas which have been fitted with new furniture and other parts.
It is indeed a shame if pristine, rare, or otherwise desirable guns are ruined by de-activation (as has been the case with too many museums) and one would certainly not advocate that but the alternative could well be total destruction. De-activation has at least allowed many Lee-Enfields to survive in some form and give people the pleasure of their ownership.

Wow, I've somewhat taken for granted the way I and my neighbors can just step outside and fire off our rifles, bolt action and semi auto, at anything we chose to on our property. Of course, this is in the wide open country. our nearest neighbor is 3/4 of a mile away. I often hear the guy next door firing some type of a semi auto rifle up on his land. The guy who lives across the road and back about another 3/4 of a mile often shoots clay pigeons and at targets that he's set up down next to the river. I can only imagine how restricted I'd feel to live with such tight firearms laws as are common throughout the rest of the world. In a country where there are about 9 legal and recorded firearms to every ten citizens, it'd be pretty tough to actually confiscate all of the firearms because I personally believe that most of the ones in the hands of private citizens aren't even on any books, records or lists. They're just owned by the families and are handed down from generation to generation. Of course criminals aren't supposed to possess firearms, so they wouldn't turn theirs in anyway. I couldn't tell you right off hand just how many firearms we have in our home. I'd have to stop and jot each one down on paper to keep track. As for ammo, For years I've followed the old tradition of "buy it cheap and stack it deep". I couldn't count the thousands of rounds of surplus 8mm, .303, .22, and 45acp that we have stored away. Too much for one family? Well who has the right to determine that? Don't forget, we don't have a Bill Of Needs. We have a Bill Of Rights. I don't need a car that can go from 0 to 120 mph in a few seconds, but I have the right to have one. I don't need most of what I have, but I have the right to have it and for now, I choose to keep it. Nobody feels threatened by me or any other good citizen. We pretty much mind our own business and keep to ourselves. Always ready to help anyone needing assistance and always keeping a watchful eye and ear out on strangers traveling through...just in case. ;)

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Originally Posted by enscien

Many thousands of these de-acs have been sold over the last 24 years since they were put on a proper legal footing and they enable people to collect and enjoy guns without the hassle of licencing, and sell them on easily (and often profitably) when necessary. Most of the Lee-Enfields are not rare: often tired and worn out re-imports from overseas which have been fitted with new furniture and other parts.

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It also allows UK civilians to legally own various types of prohibited weapon such as MG's, SMG's, assault rifles, etc. In the case of LMG's, the deact spec is relatively benign and they can be cocked and partially field stripped. As owning such weapons live is pretty much a no-no - both in the UK and most of the rest of the world - I would argue the UK deact market has saved a lot of stuff from the smelter.

I can also vouch that a lot of the Lee-Enfields that get deactivated in the UK aren't particularly desirable examples. A friend and I were browsing through the deact SMLE's at Beltring last year and an awful lot of them has obviously been partially or fully built from spares - probably fairly recently.

I've read two of these threads with "interest" although somewhat horrified interest. I'm not sure which is worse, that the guns are being deactivated or that people come to accept these deactivated guns as GUNS. These ceased being that the instant they were deactivated. From an investor/collector standpoint I guess it could be looked at as increasing the value of firearms owned by others as the supply shrinks.

I have not seen many British arms finding there way to the US lately. The last batch of imports I took notice of were about 20 years ago. A good advantage of living in the US is that we seem to be the final destination of all the firearms no one else wants anymore. The former Soviet Union states are padding their finances by selling off the Mosin Nagants and now Nagant handguns to importers in the States.

As an example of differing rights/laws/whatever, yesterday I walked into a major firearms dealer and with no license at all walked out an hour later with a fully functioning Nagant 1895 revolver and a box of ammo that cost me nothing because I used credit card points to make the purchase. I filled out one two sided paper and the front of a second, gave them my drivers license and they performed what is called an instant check over the phone with the State Police computer system.

Enfields typically sell in gun shops for between $200-$400 US with most at the lower end. If they've been sporterized, they often go for even less. Prices are going up for them and collector grade will bring much higher premiums. The Mosin Nagant 91/30's can be purchased commonly for $99 and frequently for as little as $79. The price on my Nagant Revolver was $149.

I really don't know what to suggest to those under gun restrictions, probably never be able to get that cat back in the bag at this point and with each succeeding generation growing up in that environment, it's only going to get harder.

They are thinking of putting at least some of these deacts back onto licencing again, as well as having made the spec much more severe for SMGs in recent years. As in America, DEWATs have a habit of getting reactivated again (although the old spec was much more severe than America's pre-GCA '68 one)

There's really no reason for anyone without a police record to attempt to reactivate a deactivated firearm here. In most states, if a person wants to buy a fully select fire or automatic firearm, they only have to apply with the federal Govt. to do so. The background checks are tighter. There is fingerprinting involved. There is a tax to be paid of $285.00 or something close to that. Then permission is given and the permit it taken to the class 3 dealer, collector or owner and the transfer is made. All the Govt. wants to do is to keep track of who has the firearms or silencers and to make their money off of it too. As far as I can determine, there hasn't ever been a crime committed with any legally registered class 3 firearm in this country.

Gentlemen,

I assure you the English, Australian and Canadian shooters/collectors are familiar with US laws. You need not make comments on how easy it is to buy and hold arms in most of the United States, this is well known and at times comes across as “crowing’.

In the end the deactivated arms do serve a purpose, they allow folks to own arms that they could not hold otherwise. This is equally true in the US regarding classes of arms you cannot freely purchase, you cannot buy an M16 that works as designed for less than 12,000 dollars and in many states you will not be able to obtain the permit for it. The UK has military arms available that the US collectors can only dream of, albeit in deact configuration. It is possible in the UK and Canada to get a deact MP44, Vickers, MG-42, and pretty much any other arm you would like to have with all correct parts, which anyone can buy and hold. True it will not fire, but they can be stripped and the mechanism examined along with the correct historic markings. The cost is moderate enough to allow a representative collection to be put together. You cannot do that in the states with automatics or arms not approved for import, the action body has to be solid and made of some other material, as the US has a policy “once an automatic, always an automatic”. The cost of original live automatic or destructive device arms available in the US is such that very few have deep enough pockets to own more than one or two of such patterns. The US has more severe regulations regarding other deact weapons than is the case in other parts of the English speaking realm. The fact that reasonable collections of deacts are being put together in the UK and Canada at least ensures that some semblance of these arms survives. The fate otherwise is to be made into manhole covers or the equivalent.

All arms have an effective life. At some point all tools become artifacts. In the end these historic arms that many enjoy and shoot today will be regulated to the shelves and walls, rarely to be fired under any circumstances. The numbers of American civil war arms that are still being used and actively fired are truly small, those arms are now almost entirely too valuable to be fired for fear of damage. Those of the American revolutionary period I do not believe are ever shot, having far too much value and rare. The age of the American revolutionary arms is around 225 years old; those of the American civil war in the 150 year old range; many of the Enfield rifles are in the 100 to 110 year old range. It will not be more than a generation or two until these arms see a similar pattern of use, once surplus ammunition has evaporated and the generations that had a primary connection to these arms are gone. As time proceeds they will be replaced by whatever the shooting public is allowed. The fact that automatic arms were preserved in this generation by being deacted will be a godsend to collectors in the 22nd and 23rd centuries, assuming that some semblance of western civilization survives.

Now I am sure that we would all like to live under a system where we could collect and shoot small arms to our hearts delight. The US certainly does enjoy far more access to collectable long arms and handguns, as well partially functional copies of self loading military arms. Many do not have that liberty and make do with what they can, in those cases the Deacts serve such a purpose.

Thanks for those Interesting responses. The reason for the post really was only frustration at cost and shortage of shootables.
I can't believe it but I'm now contemplating getting a few de-acts myself. No pressure, the same history and markings, hang em on the wall and
enjoy them every day. Could even screw cut for silencer, No problem if it's a de-act. Or would it be?.

I wonder, the rifles displayed and discussed here. Sometimes not obvious if they are de-activated. Perhaps a check box could be added so that we know the status of the rifle concerned. It actually makes no difference to the history I suppose and that seems to be a large part of the interest.
I imagine if de-act owners are encouraged to post here there could be some interesting finds.
Just a thought.

I was be very surprised if any at all of the weapons discussed here were deactivated. When it's deactivated there is no need to clean, no need to tinker etc and the questions won't arise in the "I took the wood off and guess what I found?" manner which many do.

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Originally Posted by jss

Could even screw cut for silencer, No problem if it's a de-act. Or would it be?.

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No problem. A moderator only needs to be licensed if it is on a Section One or Two firearm. On its own it does not need licensing nor if it is attached to anything that does not need licensing e.g. an Air Weapon.

This my sound crazy but that it the way it is.

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Originally Posted by jss

Could even screw cut for silencer, No problem if it's a de-act. Or would it be?.

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Probably not a good idea. The authorities tend to take a dim view of alterations to any deactivated parts and I believe there have been prosecutions to that effect. At the very least I would discuss it with a Proof House first.

i spose that some people out there dont want a live shooter but still want to have something that will resemble one for instance some dudes here in Aus that are in the lighthorse association want to ride but not bother with a gun license so the deac is perfect it looks the part without the hassle of a license.:o