Swede M38 Range Report

Good news and bad news.. good news is I can do approximately 1.5 inch groups @ 100 m with iron sights with this baby .. bad news is it is nowhere near centre !

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t2762011-1.jpg

I went and did a group about 2 inches in the same place later so at least I won't have to wonder if it was a one of or not. Given I can hardly see the target I was pretty happy. I was grouping better with this than my scoped No4 7.62 enfield which was embarrassing to say the least.
These things, even with an extremely fouled barrel are fantastic firearms. I cleaned it for about an hour today and it was still coming out blue. It doesn;t seem to run out of fouling... ever but damn me if it still doesn't shoot like crazy.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...05/m38_2-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

oh, I called the one right on the top left edge of the paper ... the guy next to me fired at the same instance and I flinched like a rookie

You can staple a Milsurps Competition target over the center of your group and fire another 5 shot string to enter. It should do well!

I need to do the same with a rifle or two, but haven't been to the range.

If it groups, don't worry about the fouling. Just keep the bore oiled between range sessions (after a light cleaning). Too much scrubbing is probably worse than not enough!

The loads I am using are not going to be the loads I keep using as the projectiles are not easy to come by any more. They were 129 grain hollow points, hunting bullets but all I have at the moment. I will have to get some 140 grains which might bring the POI down somewhat. Don't think it will make much difference to the shooting waaaay left though !
If it shoots like this fouled I won't get too excited. Can't argue with the results.

Go Swede!

What I did get was two case separations with my norma brass ( pics once they are out of the cleaner ). I am a bit disappointed, I only got 20 something years and more than 20+ full length resizes out of them.. things just aren't mean to last like they used to.
I think the time has come to retire the norma cases. I have some lapua ( cannot remember buying them ! ) and some PMC stuff left. I am not that impressed with the PMC as I have had separations after 3 or 4 reloads whilst others seem to go on okay. Given everything I have learned about the effects of different cases etc on accuracy I will retire the old lapua / PMC stuff to the cupboard and invest in some new quality ( probably lapua ) cases and treat them like gold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xa-coupe

What I did get was two case separations with my norma brass

---

Do not forget: Swedish rifles were NOT made to modern SAAMI/CIP standards. So neck-sizing only for Swedish brass. And so much for theory - If you got 20+ full-length resizings, then the brass must have been of amazing quality! Maybe with neck-sizing they would still be going? But seriously, stick to Scandinavian* brass for Scandinavian rifles!

Patrick
:wave:

*That includes Finland, natch!

---------- Post added at 11:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

As to the POI, this much deviation could be caused by the barrel binding hard on one side of the barrel channel. Remove the barrel bands and the handguard and carry out the postcard test - wrap a piece of postcard around the barrel and check that it can slide all the way up the barrel channel. If it jams on one side - that is the trouble spot.

Patrick
:wave:

I got my first batch on Norma brass in 1986 and reloaded it at least twice a year for the next 10 years without fail, introducing the PMC brass in mid 90s and lapua after the PMC. I just kept on using all of it mixed in until now. All in all, I am not going to complain!
I will have a look at the bedding. I haven't had the barreled action out of it yet so it will be interesting to see if there is a large contact. Is the correct bedding to have them floating or is it some voodoo art like the enfields ?? :)

fished them out of the cleaner ... time to retire these Normas although none of the others show any signs it has to be very close.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aration1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aration2-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xa-coupe

the correct bedding to have them floating or is it some voodoo art like the enfields ??

---

No voodoo, just make sure the barrel is centered in the channel, no side contact. If nobody's looking you can open out the top band a little to give a bit of freedom. You can open out the barrel channel, if necessary with a) expensive stockmaker's routers, or b) a circular Surform blade, with a slice of wood jammed in to expand it to the right curvature. This also serves as a handle for the blade. Needless to say, I use b).

Patrick
:wave:

Here is the cheapest adjustable round file you are likely to find:

Attachment 24234

I reckon you can have a drawerful of these for the price of one "official" barrel channel router.

Patrick
:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xa-coupe

fished them out of the cleaner ... time to retire these Normas although none of the others show any signs it has to be very close.

---

Those pics are precisely what one would expect if you are repeatedly full-length sizing cases which are fired in a chamber that is a touch longer than as per SAAMI/CIP.

"dutchman" has dealt with this topic in detail, even to providing pics of the real Swedish gauges. Just stick to neck-sizing. Not only will your cases last longer, the rifle will probably perform better!

Patrick
:wave:

That file is a classic ! utilitarian but 100% on the money. thanks !
Up until recently I just FL resized everything to ensure they fit as the brass seemed to be up to it ( and really didn't worry/think about it at all ! ). I have spent a lot more time researching the finer points of reloading recently and have spent a lot more time trimming brass to correct size, thinking about what proj works best ( think the boat tail disucssions for Enfield ), measuring all sorts of things I never did before and so on. One of the processes I have started is to just neck size stuff ... but... I have a heap of reloaded ammo for a rifle that's gone and it must have had a massive chamber as everything is tight in this rifle.. so a FL resize is on the cards of all that stuff.

I'm with you Xa-coupe, these rifles shoot fine with FLS'd ammo, misfeeds are minimised, cases are interchangable among rifles, unless there is some compelling reason (match target shooting with target rifles), I think on balance that FLSing is the go. Hey 20 reloads is great case life however you look at it.

I think the trick was having decent brass to begin with. The PMC stuff would be lucky to have had 5 reloads and are failing. Lapua or Norma to top up my supplies is the go. I might keep the others for emergency use.

I've had really good results with remington brass. I tried some Yuu brass (highland) and didn't get 2 out of it! In fact I turfed a lot of it before the first use, when I had 2 primers detonating in the press when seating for the first load .

I haven't seen any rem brass for athe 6.5, I have some squirrelled away for the 45/70 whilst I use up the original hornady stuff but that was an impulse buy...

Here's a pic of the 50m target I shot off on the weekend, It is far more centred than before whihc is wierd as when I started the day it was high and to the left just as before.
Later it went to the centre. I did change how I was using my rest so I am wondering if that was the cause of it. It's a cheapo which has a pretty firm surface to rest the forend on. I had my hand underneath it for these.
Something to work on next trip. It would be ironic if there was never an issue with the rifle.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../target1-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 PM ----------

I also got a heap of brass back off a friend which has a good amount of lapua as well as the PMC/Norma stuff. I will give all the lapua TLC and keep the rest for reserve now. I might not have to cough up just yet for new ones for a while.

A thought: in your first post you wrote

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xa-coupe

Given I can hardly see the target

---

As someone suffering from presbyopia and astigmatism in the shooting eye, plus the fact that I literally see double in the vertical direction (2nd weak image about 2 MOA above the proper one!) , I am very well qualified to say that if you are shooting with open sights, and expecially with a carbine or short rifle with a correspondingly short sight radius, the the FIRST thing to sort out before worrying about anything else is your vision. If you do not have the right spectacles for shooting (and those are NOT those you use for driving, or reading, but something in between) then you can waste a lot of ammo and worry time.

So, how is your vision when shooting? The sight picture with open sights varies slightly with the light. Incorrect spectacles will exacerbate this effect. Have your vision checked out by an optician who knows what shooters need. They are not too common - the typical optician has a recipe for reading, another for driving, and that's about it. Find a specialist, even if it means a round trip of a couple of hundred miles. Take the rifle with you, so you can check the sight picture with the recommended prescription right on the spot. It will probably be a better investment that a lot of fiddling around with seating depths etc.

BTW, I don't recall seeing any result of the paper card test for binding in the barrel channel - or have I missed something?

Patrick
:wave:

When I start I can usually see a single target but after about 5 minutes I see two. I usually pick one or the other to shoot at. At 50 I can see one pretty clearly not to mention the rapid fire means I don't strain my eyes concentrating too much.
Seating depths is more fun than the optician :) I am going to post on a local forum to see if anyone has a optomoetrist who knows their shooting stuff. I have had eye surgery to correct myopia 15 or so years ago and for a long time my iron sight shooting was bad only because I was no good whereas now I have an excuse. As time has gone on I am getting long sighted as most people do so I must get around to doing something about reading / computer glasses I suppose. It's called getting older I expect.
You didn;t miss it, you commented on it in the mauser forum :) I can get a thin piece of paper under the barrel now whereas I got nothing before. I could open it up a bit more but if it's floating I figure it's floating. There's also not a lot of wood around the lip of the barrel channel and I don't want to make it too thin in case it ends up breaking or something. If the wood swells or something makes me want to remove more, then I will deal with that at the time. Given I need a screwdriver, texta and sandpaper to do it I can do it anywhere I need to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xa-coupe

I can get a thin piece of paper under the barrel now whereas I got nothing before. I could open it up a bit more but if it's floating I figure it's floating.

---

Sounds OK, and you are right - there's no need to sand off more than that.

You wrote "I have had eye surgery to correct myopia 15 or so years ago" - so how about checking out the eyeballs? Surgery typically results in a certain stiffness of the affected areas.

A university friend (now deceased) who was an eye surgeon, always had "bottle glass" lens in his spectacles. At a college reunion I asked him why he, of all people, did not get his sight fixed. His answer was illuminating: "Patrick, at our age it makes no sense. The increasing lack of accomodation (presbyopia) will still mean that you end up needing reading specs, even if you may, for some years, be able to do without for driving. So in a few year you will still need the glasses, just a different prescription".

It's quite simply increasing age. You can dodge a bit, but you can't beat it.

I made a 500 km round trip to the optician who set ups shooting glasses for the German national team. He has an enormously long cellar set up as a dummy range so that you can try out the prescription there and then. He provides a Swede M96 for open sight testing and an Anschutz for diopter testing. His equipment is far more sophisticated than that of the ordinary downtown optician, and he was able to show me the flaw in the right eye that causes the double vision (think of schoolyard marbles). And he made the lenses on the spot (different ones for open and closed sights). In terms of shooting, the whole experience was an "eye-opener".

If you can find someone like that in Oz, go to him, even if it means an overnight stop.

Patrick
:wave:

I always wanted to come to Europe :)

I have asked the question on a local forum ,see what happens. I have family here and there around Aus so travelling is not a problem. Thanks for the advice Patrick !