Printable View
The following rifle was being sold in an online auction in Germany. It has a M1903 front sight and a 03A3 rear sight, a strange front sight protector and a stock with short finger clearance cutouts on both sides (Pattern 1914 style, but no dial plate):
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9e5d8e2d-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9e5d9e13-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9e5dad75-1.jpg
Any idea why someone would do that?
lack of parts available, and a way to make a semi sporter shootable.
Almost like a Bannerman's or Sedgley build-uo.
AFAICTWAHTOIMH, this is actually a P17 system in a P14 stock. The give-away is the French stock marker, CIE being the French abbreviation for COMPAGNIE i.e. company. At some stage in WWII the French were given a load of P14s, as being surplus to front-line requirements and they seem to have ended up in North Africa, specifically Algeria, where they were used by pro-French forces. A number have now ended up in Germany, and in my search for a usable P14 I have seen and handled several, shot a couple, and every single one was worn out beyond even my optimism. This is quite simply one of those relics that has been recycled with whatever could be scrounged. Take the stock from a shot-out P14, an M1917 system that has a cut-down or damaged stock (as the M1917 stock AND sights are missing, I would guess the donor was a sporterized rifle), 1903A3 sights and ... hey presto ... Vive le Bubba!**
Patrick
:wave:
** to be fair to the French, I suspect the Bubbaring was done here in Mauserland, using a sporterized M1917.
I'll take a guess: modified to a single blade fore sight, and a windage adjustable back sight equals a post-war range rifle.
I am not sure if I know exactly what you mean by a range rifle. What I am sure about is that this rifle would not be acceptable for ex-service rifle competitions in this country. While the replacement of an M1917 stock by a P14 stock would probably be acceptable as being from what is basically another version of the same design (and might even go unnoticed!) it is not permissible to change the nature of the rifle to gain an advantage by fitting sights of a non-original type.
I have seen all these components - sporterized M1917, worn out P14, Springfield sights - in the last half-year on the German auction site, and wondered myself about refurbishing a sporterized M1917 (I have a stock set with all fittings). Somebody else seems to have bought up those bits and done it.
Patrick
:wave:
For some months a dealer has been repeatedly offering an M1917 in an altered configuration described as a "Greenland rifle". Whether the dealer has one or several of them I cannot tell. This type is distinguishable by the backsight ears being milled off and open sights fitted (which alters the handguard). Maybe the unnown Bubba got one of these as the donor of the M1917 system. Hard to see otherwise why someone should mill off the ears just to fit an '03A3 backsight. And the naked '03 foresight blade is not as good as the original M1917 foresight protected by its ears.
I repeat my original opinion: opportunistic fudging done in Germany.
Patrick
:wave:
Patrick, I believe the type of rifle you are refering to came about in Germany due to some stupid rule on long range sights and bayonet lugs. I've seen loads of these for sale in the last few years.
Weapons OnLine - P17 Home Guard??
You are correct inasmuch as there was such a stupid rule, which required bayonet lugs to be removed and backsight sliders to be welded so that they could not be set above 300 meters. Presumably the unsung genius who though this up imagined that mad milsurp freaks would otherwise be taking potshots at 2000 yards:madsmile: and then charging 2 kilometers with fixed bayonets.:madsmile: :madsmile: And thought that fixing backsights at 300 meters would somehow make the rifle "demilitarized":madsmile::madsmile::madsmile: But even this piece of bureaucratic nonsense would not require removing the foresight or milling the backsight ears off an M1917.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
If you study the M1917 system on the rifle in question, I think you will agree that it seems to be in good condition - bluing and markings on the barrel ring and at the top of the barrel, just below the foresight, are good and clear. So this was not a half-wrecked beater, but a good rifle that was deliberately altered. Hence my conclusion that is was a sporter. Wood shortened, front sight removed - so presumably a scope fitted - and backsight removed and ears milled off to make a platform for attaching a scope.
Then along comes Bubba, who just happens to have/find the wood from a shot-out P14 (if he had had the whole rifle he could have fitted the foresight from the P14) and Springfield sights in the spares box. And fudges it all together to make a functioning rifle, but nothing that would be useful in a competition - illegitimate for service rifle competitions, outclassed for free-rifle competitions.
Patrick
:wave:
I'm not even sure the stock is "real". Something looks "off".
Patrick,
The Greenland-Rifle is correct, the M1917 was used at the 'Sirius Patrol', the sled dog patrol on Greenland. I'm not sure about the design of the rifle, but they definately used the M1917 (as did the Danish). The fact that there are more of them around the world (thanks Brit plumber for the link) would confirm that.
Back to the origin of my thread: please note that the stock of the rifle is completely different from any Pattern 1914 stock. It's got the short finger clearance cutout, but no volley sight disc. And what do the markings on the front sight protector mean? Why would someone assemble parts and mark the front sight with E, 5 7 over 44?
PS: Save those pictures please as they'll be deleted from the linked page within the next 2 months.
*edit*
Did some further reasearch on the Danish story. Interestingly that the Danish Homeguard altered 2000 M1917s in 1962 to .22lr, designated as 5,6 mm instruktionsgevær M/60(53/17), based upon the prototype version T/57 (53/17). It may be that they used the 10.000 M1917s with cut notches they got from Norway.