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Attachment 24334Attachment 24335Attachment 24336Originally designed to fit the buttstock into the cup on the belt, to provide automatic fire while advancing during WW1. Note the M1911 magazine pouch too. The bipod was developed after WW1 and used for a short period of time around 1937
Outstanding example RCS.
I have seen those and didn't understand how the metal object was intended to be used. Makes sense.
I had one of those in the 80's and tried to put my 1918A2 butt in the cup. Couldn't figure why it wouldn't go. Then I realised the originals didn't have the same buttplate as the A2s.
The Browning Model 1918 used the Model 1917 buttplate (and rear sight) while the Model 1918A1 introduced the hinged buttplate for prone shooting (and early bipod). During WW2 the hinged buttplate continued only the buttstock was plastic (M1918A2) and a new bipod was designed
I've learned a lot of new things already from experienced people like you guys, Lloyd and others, and just wanted to thank you for participating so much early on.
I hope this new forum pans out. I really am enjoying learning so much from experienced people and I hope our other members like it too.
~ Harlan
Glad we could help......RCS is right originally the "walking fire" concept of the Browning Machine Rifle was the intended strategy...where the BAR gunner locked the stock..(originally wooden and no hinged shoulder plate) would fit in the butt cup.....and then this would keep the "Huns" heads down as the troops adavnced.....these belts came in 2 types in WW1 Gunners and Assistant Gunner whos belt had 4 x BAR mag pouches and then 2 x M1903 rifel stripper clip pockets for his own ammo for his riflr...the assistant gunner als was equipped with 2 BAR bandoleers.
Regards
Lloyd
Just to have some reference pic. This is my WWI BAR stuff. Gunner belt, 2nd assistant belt and bandoleers (left&right). Mags are belgian postwar (I couldn't find originals).
Note that most of gunner and assistant belt were converted for WWII use in 6 mag pouches.
Brilliant ...picture explanation Artu...and welcome to our forum......your expertise will be greatly appreciated here.
Regards
Lloyd
During WW2, Seymour Products (Thompson magazines) developed a special case hardened magazine follower for the BAR magazine. Not sure of the reason, it was thought to extend the life of the follower and improve feeding. I found this one many years ago in the spare parts, as I was an armorer. Note the case color on the followerAttachment 24701
Yep , three man team . Gunner had 4 pockets , 2-1911 pockets and the cup. 1st asst had 5 pockets and 2-1911 pockets ( no cup ) . 2nd asst had 4-pockets and 4 2-1903 stripper pockets ( no cup and no 1911 pockets ). The 1st asst also caried the 2 bandoleers. The gunner also carried the spare parts box in one pocket , so he had only 6-7 mags ( 120-140 rds) . 1st asst had 10 mags in his belt and 12 in his bandoleers for 22 mags or 440 rds. The 2nd caried 8 mags or 160 rds. This came to 720-740 rds , more if the 2nd caried any bandoleers . This soon changed , and I believe there are 2nd asst belts marked 1st asst as tactacts changed.
Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmagee1917
That's an old tale about 1st assistant. Actually 1st assistant belt doesn't exsist (nobody ever saw a belt marked this way) cause the man wore the gunner belt. 1st assistant was armed only with a M1911 and his "purpose" was to pick up the BAR in the case the gunner would have been killed or wound.
When I was an armorer many years ago, we still had the M1 rifle also had 12 BAR's all rebuilt from WW1 examples (Winchester, Marlin-Rockwell) to WW2 standards. These BAR's always worked without any problems. We had the stripper clip charger for the magazine but never had any cartridges on five round stripper clips, always had to use the eight round en bloc clips to load the BAR magazines by hand.
That M1918A1 bipod is quite rare and few,Attachment 25090 if any ( the Philippines ) ever had service in WW2
I had three BARs over time. In order they were Royal Typewriter, Marlin Rockwell and NESA. I had the mag charger like that one and they worked marvelously. They were of such a heavy material that I'm sure you could step on it and not bend it. At this point, this is the first anyone has mentioned one. I thought 5 round 1903 clips would have been common in WW2 but you NEVER see pics of them using the charger. Always loose into mags. I was raised on F.N.s so I know how that feels.
Artu44 , I was going to call you on this one. Jim Ballou's book clearly shows one so identified on page 333 , fig 516. However , when I looked it up to get the page , I could see the two little holes under the 5th pouch which clearly shows it had had a cup which had been removed and the 5th pouch added , so you could well be right.
This reminds me of when I was just getting started in my WW2 / BAR collecting. I saw a film wherein three GIs walked past the camera . The 3rd GI was carring the BAR and he had a bandoleer of BAR mags over his shoulder. I saw the front and , as they walked past , the film taker followed them and I got a good view of the rear. I had never heard of it , and it was not two belts hooked together. When I asked where I could buy one of these bandoleers , all the collecters said it didn't exist. I said I had seen it , but they didn't believe me. About a year later , I saw the clip again , and was sure it was a bandoleer and had twelve single pockets on it and was too nice for a rigger made piece. That was 20 years ago , and all the old timers laughed at me. Two or three years ago , these bandoleers were "discovered" . The are paratrooper bandoleers for carring twelve smoke grenades on the D-day jump. There was a flurry of these that came out on auction right after they were ID'd. Never say never.
Chris
Never say never. I agree. As regards the so called 1st assistant belt, I've learned of its no-exsistance from the late Carter Rila, the grandad of all US militaria collector passed away a couiple of years ago. Indeed the habit to remove the unuseful cup (dont waste ammos shooting from the hip and dont expose yourself standing) can add confusion but markings don't lie. While all 2nd assistant are originally so marked, none ever saw a single belt marked 1st assistant.
Paratrooper Bandoleers....:rofl::rofl::rofl:.....
Aru i have a modified Plant Bros WW1 belt .....modified by AVERY and dated 1942 on the web joining belt...with the butt cup and 45 mag pouch removed and 2 additional BAR mage pockets sewn on in their place.... and still retaining the WW1 dates....
i also know the whereabouts of a "rounded flap pocket" BAR belt ..made by S Froelich which is attributed to being USMC issue...
Regards
Lloyd
Well, usually rounded or pointed flap is a choice of maunfacturer and it doesn't mean nothing peculiar. It's very strange that Avery modification didn't include the replacement of the butt cup with a mag pouch. With the WWI belt you cannot touch your feet or pick up something from the ground cause the huge buckle will stab your stomach so the main WWII modification was to convert it to accept a buckle from an ordinary pistol belt. At the same time, being tactics changed, all were converted to 6 mag pouches. Never seen a WWI converted BAR belt maintaining the butt cup. It can be a Bubba job, a theater mod or a great rarity.
In the pic a tipical WWII era conversion of a WWI BAR belt.
No Artu the butt cup and mag pouch have been removed and replaced with standard pockets.......just overstamped by AVERY and dated 1942.....i assume AVERY carried out the modifications to the WW1 BAR belt
Regards
Lloyd
It's not completely exact. The gunner had to use one of his pouch for the leather box containing spares and tools ( so only 6 mags available) and the 1st assistant wore a gunner belt plus two bandoleers (20 mags). His main gun was a M1911 ant he had to pick up the gun in the case gunner would have been killed or wounded. Indeed the 1st assistant belt doesn't exist and none ever saw one so marked. 2nd assistant armed with a rifle had his dedicated belt plus two bandoleers (20 mags). Total is 920 rounds per team.Quote:
Originally Posted by emmagee1917
---------- Post added at 02:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 AM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by LimeyCarbineLover
Yes Lloyd,
I can't remember why I wrote such bullshinola or what I wished to say.