markings on my No.1 mark III

Hi everyone. I'm hoping I can impose upon y'all to help me figure out some more details about the rifle I just picked up earlier today. It's a No.1 MkIII (no asterisk), and I'm pretty sure it's British-made, but can't tell beyond that.

I can take pictures if necessary.

The numbers on the piece of metal that separates the stock from the wood around the barrel (and is connected to the trigger guard) are:

picture that is almost rubbed out ... might be the crown that was put on British-made rifles?
ENFIELD
1907
SHTLE
III

On the side of the the bolt lever facing the butt, there's the serial number 54--, with a "DP" stamped beside/on top of the serial number. On the little tail-piece of the bolt (don't know how to describe it), there's the big arrow that I believe is usually put on British-made rifles. There's also what looks like a tiny "DE" or something like that.

No markings on the butt-plate that I can see. On the right of the stock is engraved/stamped the letters MA, and below that 2/45. There's also what looks like the letters IIV or something like that. Towards the butt, there're some numbers stamped as well.

At the barrel-end of the gun, on the metal part kinda underneath the front sight, there're the letters BA. On the circular piece that sticks out under the muzzle, there's a D, and then below that the numbers 77569.

As I said, I can post pictures, but if anyone has any thoughts on interpretation I would appreciate it.

Sounds like a No.1 MkIII that is drill purpose marked (DP) and has spent some time down under (MA - BA)...

Hmm, wouldn't that mean it's no longer fireable? I haven't actually shot this one yet, but everything seems to work. The pin-looking thing that sticks out the back behind the bolt handle goes forward when the trigger is pulled. There's nothing blocking the barrel or anything....

DP means an armourer has deemed it unsuitable for firing ball ammunition. Drill with it yes, fire it no. I have never seen a DP that had it's action or barrel holed or welded. I have owned a few DP rifles, but only used them for display... YMMV

I really hope that's not the case, 'cause it means the dealer lied to my face. That being said, I've also seen people saying that some rifles were marked DP due to obsolescence, not because there was actually anything wrong with the rifle. Most of the DP rifles I've seen people talk about have DP stamped in several locations, not just the one place on the bolt handle. It seems strange that it would just be there and nowhere else.

Does the serial number on the bolt match the reciever ? If so, you have a DP rifle. It also seems to have a lot of Lithgow ( MA ) parts so it has had some replacement parts. I wouldn't stake my life on it but I would be pretty sure they didn't FTR No1 MkIIIs in 1945. The serious collectors can cofirm or deny that.

They do match, yes. Crap. So is there any way to tell for sure, or do I need to try to get my money back?

Are the letters "D.P." also stamped on the receiver ring or on the Knox form?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amatikulu

Are the letters "D.P." also stamped on the receiver ring or on the Knox form?

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Not on the receiver ring and not on as much of the Nock's form that I can see (which is pretty much only the top facet ... looks like the serial number was stamped farther in also).

Pictures man, pictures... :confused:

Ok. I couldn't get a decent shot of the markings on the bolt handle with my cell phone, but I got some others, and I'll upload the best of the handle shots I was able to get.

I uploaded them all to this gallery.

The lack of DP markings on the receiver body and if there are no other DP marks on the rifle, rifle suggests to me that with the exception of the bolt, the rifle was not assigned to DP status.I state this as every other DP rifle I have seen has been liberally stamped with DP on practically every part big enough to receive the stamp. If the bolt body is the only metal piece stamped with the letters D.P. it is my feeling that at some time someone outside of the military replaced the bolt with one that came from a Drill Purpose rifle. However, you should wait for the more knowledgeable armorer/armourers opinions before you conclude anything about your rifle.

Fair enough, and that gives me some hope that it's shootable. Worst-case buying a new bolt shouldn't be too hard.

A family friend is a gunsmith, so I'm trying to catch up with him today. Hopefully if nothing else we can put a few rounds through it on a bench and find out what happens.

A rifle could be DP`d for something as itle as the headspace being on the long side and no parts at hand.

Something else to consider: this is a Mark III rifle. The Mark III went into production at the end of January, 1907. I have a Mark I* converted to ** converted to ***, also 1907, which means the early part of January. At the end of the Great War, huge amounts of equipment was DP`d just because it was older-model stuff: ALL the CLLEs, just for a start. So were many of the Mark I rifle in various mods. I would not be surprised at all to find a very early Mark III which had been DP`d at the same time for no reason other than that it wasn`t the latest model.

Following the Great War, the British rebuilt vast numbers of SMLEs. Some were issued in peacetime, others were given to new nations, some were given or sold to the Dominions, others handed out as aid to other countries. Enough were left, completely rebuilt and with brand-new barrels, that when the peaceniks wanted to demonstrate in the 1930s that they were not as warlike as that nice Mister Hitler, thousands of these rifles were DP`d, had the bolts withdrawn, the Bodies crushed and hacksaw cuts put through that brand-new barrel, right at the Knox-form. I know this: I once owned a dozen of them, left another hundred in Lever`s shop.

OTOH, I am shooting a 1907 Mark I*** with prominent DP marking on the barrel. All it needed was a bolt that fit. I have shot this rifle a fair bit over the last 46 years and it hasn`t killed me yet.

I think if the OP`s rifle were examined by someone qualified, likely it could be approved for shooting with mild loads, possibly after minor repairs.... and mild loads will give you your best accuracy, anyway.

Good luck!

A 1907 Mark III. Imagine that! A treasure.
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Here's my 1907 BSA MkIII as we need some pics in this thread:D

Your thinking mirrors mine, smellie, although of course I don't know the history as well. I dropped the rifle off yesterday with a gunsmith around here who specializes in old military stuff, and he's going to give it a going over and test fire it. Will report back when I get it back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smellie

A rifle could be DP`d for something as itle as the headspace being on the long side and no parts at hand.

Something else to consider: this is a Mark III rifle. The Mark III went into production at the end of January, 1907. I have a Mark I* converted to ** converted to ***, also 1907, which means the early part of January. At the end of the Great War, huge amounts of equipment was DP`d just because it was older-model stuff: ALL the CLLEs, just for a start. So were many of the Mark I rifle in various mods. I would not be surprised at all to find a very early Mark III which had been DP`d at the same time for no reason other than that it wasn`t the latest model.

Following the Great War, the British rebuilt vast numbers of SMLEs. Some were issued in peacetime, others were given to new nations, some were given or sold to the Dominions, others handed out as aid to other countries. Enough were left, completely rebuilt and with brand-new barrels, that when the peaceniks wanted to demonstrate in the 1930s that they were not as warlike as that nice Mister Hitler, thousands of these rifles were DP`d, had the bolts withdrawn, the Bodies crushed and hacksaw cuts put through that brand-new barrel, right at the Knox-form. I know this: I once owned a dozen of them, left another hundred in Lever`s shop.

OTOH, I am shooting a 1907 Mark I*** with prominent DP marking on the barrel. All it needed was a bolt that fit. I have shot this rifle a fair bit over the last 46 years and it hasn`t killed me yet.

I think if the OP`s rifle were examined by someone qualified, likely it could be approved for shooting with mild loads, possibly after minor repairs.... and mild loads will give you your best accuracy, anyway.

Good luck!

A 1907 Mark III. Imagine that! A treasure.
.

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Sorry, I completely forgot to update. Took it to a gunsmith in town who put a couple rounds through it and looked it over, said everything came out fine. I haven't taken it to the range yet; our outdoor range's opening was delayed by a hurricane a month or so ago, and I've had a hell of a time finding .303 ammunition. Further details as events warrant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smellie

A rifle could be DP`d for something as itle as the headspace being on the long side and no parts at hand.

Something else to consider: this is a Mark III rifle. The Mark III went into production at the end of January, 1907. I have a Mark I* converted to ** converted to ***, also 1907, which means the early part of January. At the end of the Great War, huge amounts of equipment was DP`d just because it was older-model stuff: ALL the CLLEs, just for a start. So were many of the Mark I rifle in various mods. I would not be surprised at all to find a very early Mark III which had been DP`d at the same time for no reason other than that it wasn`t the latest model.

Following the Great War, the British rebuilt vast numbers of SMLEs. Some were issued in peacetime, others were given to new nations, some were given or sold to the Dominions, others handed out as aid to other countries. Enough were left, completely rebuilt and with brand-new barrels, that when the peaceniks wanted to demonstrate in the 1930s that they were not as warlike as that nice Mister Hitler, thousands of these rifles were DP`d, had the bolts withdrawn, the Bodies crushed and hacksaw cuts put through that brand-new barrel, right at the Knox-form. I know this: I once owned a dozen of them, left another hundred in Lever`s shop.

OTOH, I am shooting a 1907 Mark I*** with prominent DP marking on the barrel. All it needed was a bolt that fit. I have shot this rifle a fair bit over the last 46 years and it hasn`t killed me yet.

I think if the OP`s rifle were examined by someone qualified, likely it could be approved for shooting with mild loads, possibly after minor repairs.... and mild loads will give you your best accuracy, anyway.

Good luck!

A 1907 Mark III. Imagine that! A treasure.
.

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I regret to say Raskolnic but replacing the bolt in your SMLE isn't just a case of taking the old one out and stuffing a new one in............. Well, it is, after a fashion but to do it properly the actual bolt has to be set up PROPERLY first and then, after you have all the interrelated parts correctly configured, then you have to fit that bolt to your rifle. Then after that, you've got to correctly headspace it

But, on the other hand....................

As a matter of interest, on the subject of fitting up bolts, I seem to remember reading somewhere on the forum some time ago that the striker and cocking piece threads were indexed. This is not correct. There are several reasons but the main one being that there is sufficient 'slack' in the system to ensure that the bolt head overturn and lift can be achieved without them being indexed. The next reason is the question '.....what would you index the striker thread with?' The striker tool slots or the keeper screw recess

I checked this with 35 strikers and just less than that amount of cocking pieces

I don't doubt that it's not simple, but it hasn't proved to be necessary. The original bolt fired fine, and there's no evidence I actually need to replace it.

Ive been hunting for a genuine 1907 for a long time, they are very few and far between, caused by comparatively limited numbers and being consumed by WW1. Good find, happy shooting ...

Thank you! I was quite excited when I came across it at a military surplus dealer's table at a gun show. I'd been looking for an Enfield, but definitely didn't think I'd find one that old.

Thanks, and an update if anyone is still following. Took it to the range, put 40 rounds through it without a hitch. Shoots beautifully, even if I don't!