I've acquired this P14 fairly recently and I know very little about them. Was it just the bolt and action serial numbered on these? Also, would anyone know what the stamps on the butt disc represent.
Thanks
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I've acquired this P14 fairly recently and I know very little about them. Was it just the bolt and action serial numbered on these? Also, would anyone know what the stamps on the butt disc represent.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demo
Yes, but I recommend that you put your questions on the "M1917 and Pattern 1913/1914" forum, to atttract the attention of the right people. The IE in a circle on the butt is in fact Roman I (for Mark 1) and E for Eddystone.
3RR 180 is a unit rack marking. 3rd Rough Riders? :madsmile: 3rd Railroad? :madsmile::madsmile:
I guess not, but someone here or on the M1917 forum may know...
Patrick
:wave:
---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------
Got it -its not 3RR but 3 BR - 3rd Battalion Border Regiment
Patrick
:wave:
... and the maltese cross below the butt disk indicates "Emergency Use Only".
... and W98 on the receiver ring means that it is from the very first Winchester delivery. (Which of course does not match up with the IE on the stock!) . Quality problems (part sizes and fitting) with this first batch may well be the reason why it was marked for emergency use only. So the barreled system could well have seen very little to zero shooting! How is the bore?
Holy Haystack is that an good looking piece for being one of the first P14 built, I'd love to call that piece mine. Check the back of the ladder sight (on top), there should be a S/N aswell. Is the Volley Sight still existing?
Is that a fine adjustment rearsight DEMO, looks like i can just see the top of the winder. Nice rifle:)
Excellent information, thanks.
Rear sight has a fine adjustment. Has a 4 digit serial number with a line through it. Also the leaf spring has a E, would that be Eddystone?
No rear volley but the front is a LES 2 with a short pointer for a MkIII.
Bore is shiny and sharp. Can't fault it with my eye.
Is it likely that it's been put together by a civilian/collector/enthusiast or possibly stock and sight have been replaced whilst in military service?
It also has a six pointed star and Z on the underside of the pistol grip. Can't see any other stamps.
The six-pointed star on the underside of the pistol grip mean that the rifle was converted to the Weedon Repair Standard (WRS) The Z indicates the factory or contractor - Westley Richards in this case.
The majority of P14 Mk1s were converted to MK1*. This is indicated by a * on the receiver ring, above the factory letter stamp and serial number. I cannot see such a mark in your photos. Furthermore, the WRS involved removal of the volley sight, including the front pointer. Your rifle still has a pointer, but the wrong one. Plus the leaf spring marked with E ....
I regret to say, IMOH you have a mixmaster. :thdown:
But maybe it's a good shooter.
Patrick
:wave:
Nothing for you to be sorry about Patrick. Thanks for the feedback. I'm not a shooter but it will be a good trade for another lithgow.
Thanks again.
I just bought my first P14 and when I took the stock off the barrel was serial numbered also just forward of the receiver under the top hand guard. There were A LOT of things stamped under there so you may want to what yours has on it. I was surprised to find mine had the original barrel what I assume was the date stamped on it. It had a smaller 17' near the serial number. I could be wrong about this as I am very new to these rifles. I need to find a good book to read up on them.
Just an interesting little note to add to this thread for debate. I've learned that Winchester used Eddystone stocks and these are identified by a stamp under the butt plate. My rifle has the stamp (pictured).
Maybe this rifle isn't a mixmaster after all. Anyone care to add comment for my education.[COLOR="black"]
---------- Post added at 06:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 AM ----------
Look at the foreend of the stock, the part that comes out from the bayonet lug. There should be the manufacturers marking aswell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demo
Yes. Maybe the sequential logic in my previous post was not quite clear. I am very wary of absolutist words such as "always" and "never". We should rather stick to words like "probable" and "improbable" and remember that the goal of armorers was to have the rifles working, not to worry about numbering or marking perfection for collectors a century later. For the Pattern 1914 production, it was not a requirement that the parts must be interchangeable between manufacturers. That came later, with the M1917. The War Office had approved 3 separate models: .303 Pattern 1914 MK I E, .303 Pattern 1914 MK I R, and .303 Pattern 1914 MK I W. Hence the IE marking on the butt.
So I will not categorically rule out that a Winchester rifle could have acquired an Eddystone stock at a later stage - maybe during the WRS procedure. But I think you can regard it as extremely unlikely that the very first batch from Winchester used Eddystone stocks.
The sequential logic argument is: regardless of who made the bits, a rifle that had been through WRS would have been upgraded to the * configuration beforehand. In other words, a WRS stock and non-upgraded system just do not match. Avoiding the risky "Never", let's just settle for very, very unlikely. And the fact that the rifle was marked for emergency use only indicates an official judgement that there was something "iffy" about it.
The volley sight pointer is, of course, a later addition by some private person, and is in no way original. And although the backsight leaf spring might break because of a bad temper, it is more likely to happen if it is removed and replaced. Likewise, the backsight itself (which appears to be non-original) did not just fall off and jump back on again - the original sight was removed and another one fitted later. This could be the result of, for instance, fitting Parker-Hale competition sights. Who can tell? But the rifle is no longer the same assemblage of components that originally left the Winchester factory as number 98.
All this doesn't matter a hoot unless you are a serious collector. I am a serious shooter, so my final comment is: to hell with the marking fetish - how does it shoot?
Patrick
:wave:
Patrick I don't know how it shoots, I'm a serious collector of SMLE's and don't care to shoot.
Parts get replaced and it doesn't matter to me if it isn't as it was when it left the factory either. Doesn't make them mixmasters though. My 1913 lithgow is not as it left the factory but it's still of the rarist nature and highly collectible.
This is what I've learned. Winchester did use Eddystone stocks. When is not clear and rifles were not always upgraded to MkI* during WRS. It seems there is some debate on that point. Still doesn't prove anything either way with this gun but it's a long way off thumbs down to me.
What I know about P14's, I've learned in the last two weeks off two forums but it's all very interesting.
Demo