M1 Carbine Power

Been doing alot of reading about how the carbine round is frowned upon by some people. Then you have others who praise the round, I happen to be one of them. I've shot a few things from 75 to 100 yards and it's pretty impressive to me.

Does anybody have any test data for the carbine for what it can do at certain distances. Wondering how much power the bullet has at 100, 200, 300, even 500 yards. Are you still going to shatter a wine bottle at 300 yards?

It's hard to believe some people don't think this is a powerful little round, it sure seems impressive to me.

500 yards is a bit unrealistic. 300 yards might be wishful thinking. If you could hit the bottle with the drop you will encounter it should break the glass. If you have a reloading book it estimates the drop at different distances.

I find mine accurate (2"-3") at 100 yards. A bigger spread at 150 and much bigger at 200. That is as far as I have aimed at a target.

As far as the foot-pounds force power of the carbine round, it is listed on numerous ballistic tables. It is somewhere between a .357 round and a .44 Mag round.

The difference of opinions are based on several factors. The biggest one is a person's expectations. Some people have an expectation that since it comes out of a long gun, it should act like a rifle round. (Even a similar size Mini-14 shoots the 5.56 and that has more power at those distances.) Some people recognize that it was a replacement for the even shorter-ranged .45 pistol round and it has more than power at (and a bit beyond) pistol ranges.

I try to think of using it at the same ranges I would use a .44 or .357 lever action rifle. It just shoots better, faster and more than a 7-shot lever.

But to get the definitive answer on the topic, I would suggest that we ask those that actually got the experience of its use - but I speak neither Germany nor Japanese and I don't talk to ghosts....

Just my two cents...

Not very scientific, but I have shot a fifteen round magazine, with all hits inside the eight ring of a B27 target at 300 yards, from a rest.

Have also shot through both sides of an old GI kelvar helmet with a FMJ carbine round from 10 yards distance.

This was for my own edification!

It is a light for caliber round and a wee bit under powered. It will outrun a 357 Magnum to an extent. After 200 yards, a middle to heavy weight 357 will be traveling faster (and carrying more energy) due to the weight of the bullet. Do not compare it to a 44 Magnum. The power just isn't there. 44s tend to carry velocity a little better again due to the weight.
Would I play catch with a 30 carbine at 300 yards? Not on your life!
It really is a capable little performer when kept inside it's operating range.
We plan on taking the carbines out to look for piggies after I get my I-J project running reliably.

The 30 carbine has as much energy left at 300 yards as the .38 spl does at the muzzle with the standard 158 gr. loadings.

There are tens of thousands of dead Germans, Japanese, Chinese and Viet Cong who will testify that it is a deadly round....if they could.

Read "Blackhawk Down" and hear about how Somalis were shot multiple times with the M16 green tip Nato round and just flinched and kept going like they were not even hit. The D-Boys were especially ****ed about it and preferred the M14.

Both stories say one thing.....shot placement. A hit in the engine room with a carbine and you are toast.

Yes, and when you consider the nimble little M1 carbine was only designed as a more effective weapon for those who would have otherwise only had a sidearm it must be one of the overachievers of all time.

A neighbor was examining a .30 Carbine round in my little backyard shop and commented that it didn't look like much of a man-killer. My response was, if you're hit in the vitals, do you really think it matters much how far they're splattered? No response.....

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Originally Posted by Tired Retired

... It is somewhere between a .357 round and a .44 Mag round.

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Hmmmm.... I think I typed "BETWEEN".....

I still think it has a bit more versitility than a lever gun in MOST situations....

The .45 ACP is rated at 830 FPS and 356 ft. lbs. energy. In a submachine gun, it has notorious performance (Thompson/Tommy Gun). Then imagine a round at 1990 FPS with about 900 ft. lbs. of energy in an M2 select-fire carbine - all things considered, including magazine capacity with the small-diameter round, I think you would have just about the most powerful sub-gun of all. The Israelis may still be using a bull-pup version of the carbine in that role. What a chopper! Even in semi-auto and standard stock, with soft-point/hollow point ammo it is arguably the best home defense carbine there is. As long as you think of it as a pistol-caliber defense carbine you won't find any faults with it. The trouble starts when it is compared to assault rifles with short rifle cartridges and battle rifles. And when viewed in it's original role of more firepower for troops that would normally be armed only with pistols, like Harlan said, 'one of the over achievers of all time'.

Another consideration: If you are not an army you do not have to use FMJ bullets. There are effective soft point and hollow point bullets available for the 30 carbine.

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Originally Posted by us019255

Another consideration: If you are not an army you do not have to use FMJ bullets. There are effective soft point and hollow point bullets available for the 30 carbine.

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Feed reliability may come into play.

Not counting 22RF and shotgun shells I've probably fired more .30 carbine rounds than anything else, I have yet to experience any FTF issues caused by soft or hollow point bullets.

I have seen a tendency for my carbine to have issues with some soft points. I'm working with the cartridge length to see if it helps.

I am exclusively using Remington 110 SP for reloading right now. (Bought a bunch at the same price as Rem FMJ). I have not had a single problem with any feeding into any of my shooters. I also have pretty smooth feed ramps on my shooters. (A couple came with park on the ramps from arsenal rebuilds so I polished them.) For commercial SP, I am also using Remington SP's.

One thing I noticed is the differences between some bullet manufacturers in how much lead is exposed in the SP's. I do not know if it is a quality control or a design issue. Last night I was looking at the rounds in a box of Privi SP at Cabela's. The exposed lead was uneven around the circumference of the bullet. It also seems to extend lower on the bullet than most other manufacturers. I would think that this would increase the chance of the bullet tip dragging on the feeding ramp.

Of course, all of this is conjecture. But next time I go to the range I will be sure to stick my face really close to the bolt and slide handle so that I can see what is actually going on inside.

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Originally Posted by Tired Retired

Of course, all of this is conjecture. But next time I go to the range I will be sure to stick my face really close to the bolt and slide handle so that I can see what is actually going on inside.

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Time to get out of the heat down there and go inside some air conditioning for a bit.

The heat down here got to Ed a long time ago mjanway! Keeping up with him is a full time job. :lol:

Tired, the Remington 110 SP is the bullet I'm having trouble with. The lead tips are horribly inconsistent and smeared everywhere. The bullet also has the same profile as the ball rounds. That fat lead tip rides up the ramp and noses into the edge of the chamber. When that happens it displaces the lead and the end of the jacket hits the chamfer on the barrel. When I get a stoppage I can see the signs of it on the bullet. I'm playing with loading length to see if it goes away. It looks like a bullet seated to magazine length may cure the problem.
The Speer bullets are pointier and feed a bit better. When those are headed for the chamber the smaller lead tip hits inside of the chamfer and there is no trouble. The same goes for the Hornady 100 gr short jacket squishies.

As for carbine power, have a looksie here:
Alaska's Digital Archives : Item Viewer

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...212256_9-1.jpg

I couldn't make a habit of doing what he seems to have done but it apparently worked!

---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

Tired, the Remington 110 SP is the bullet I'm having trouble with. The lead tips are horribly inconsistent and smeared everywhere. The bullet also has the same profile as the ball rounds. That fat lead tip rides up the ramp and noses into the edge of the chamber. When that happens it displaces the lead and the end of the jacket hits the chamfer on the barrel. When I get a stoppage I can see the signs of it on the bullet. I'm playing with loading length to see if it goes away. It looks like a bullet seated to magazine length may cure the problem.
The Speer bullets are pointier and feed a bit better. When those are headed for the chamber the smaller lead tip hits inside of the chamfer and there is no trouble. The same goes for the Hornady 100 gr short jacket squishies.

As for carbine power, have a looksie here:
Alaska's Digital Archives : Item Viewer

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._4777980_n.jpg

I couldn't make a habit of doing what he seems to have done but it apparently worked!

I know I have related this before, but I have killed a deer at almost 100 yards with one heart lung shot of a 110 JSP R-P round from a USGI carbine. I could stick 4 fingers and a thumb in the exit hole. Box of truth did some amazing studies on the carbine, and even the GI ball tumbles and yaws in flesh. I shot a 110 JSP through a USGI PAGST Kevlar helmet t 50 yards...

Much of the bad rap comes from Koren War where the distances were great, and it was used as a rifle at 200-400 yards. Undisciplined full auto fire also gave it a bad rep, because of their 20 round burst, 19 did not hit the target. I carried one with utmost confidence as a LEO trunk weapon for most of my 20 year career. For a house weapon and house/farm PDW, I prefer it to my AR15s.

ADDITIONAL: I shoot exclusively Remington 110 FMJs and JSPs from my CMP Inland. I have had zero FTFs or FTEs, and it is dead-nuts on. My Inland is loaded and hanging in my"quick grab place" in the house, ready for two legged goblins, ghouls, or homicidal maladroits...

that soft nose is dragging against the front inside of the magazine and chewing it up. I noticed this when I first started reloading the carbine. The OAL must be short enough to give the round a lot of clearance from the front. Even slightly too long and they drag and don't feed well. The rounds are sluggish coming up and it really affects functioning.

I have never had any issues with RP soft points. My last trip to the Como, MS range, I finished my range session with a 30 round "J" magazine with 15 JSPs on top, and 15 FMJs in the bottom half. I have had a few issues with WW 110 HPs, though, because they have twice or three times the exposed lead of the newer RP JSPs. Ran like a top!

According to my reloading logs, I have been reloading to a COL between 1.670" to 1.672". My reference books show a COL of 1.675" to 1.680". Just remeber that as you shorten the COL, your pressure will increase in the case (all other variables being unchanged).

Wow, I have been away for too long.

I have not found that any of the softpoints or hollowpoints function reliably in either of my 2 carbines--an underwood & a NPM. I've tried the Remington, the CCI/Speer, the Corbon, the Privi. The CCI/Speer seems to run the best, but still, with a variety of magaziness, I haven't found one round that will go 100 rounds without a feeding issue.

EdL, have you tried polishing your feeding ramp? Everyone of my carbines love SP. I really can not tell the difference of what I am shooting (function-wise) unless I look in the magazine.

No, I have not tried polishing the feed ramp for several reasons.

First, I don't know what I am doing, and am afraid of messing something up.

Second, I am concerned about altering a historic weapon.

Third, though I think M1 Carbines are great, I have other first and second line home defense firearms that I feel are better suited for the task.

Here are some photos that I have taken:

First, here is a photo of a much older Remington 110 grain soft point getting caught on the feedramp when being fed from a Korean made magazine. This is an older version of the 110 grain softpoint that had a lot more exposed lead on the tip than current loads:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rounds01-1.jpg

Below is a line-up of rounds:The first round on the left is an American Eagle FMJ. The second is a Speer Gold Dot Softpoint. Notice the narrow profile of the softpoint in that there is minimal amount that might get caught on the feedramp. This round seems to feed the best of any SP round that I have tested. The only failure that I have noted with this round is an incidence where the ejected case from one round got in the way of feeding the next round. I've run about 60-75 rounds of this through one of my carbines. The third round is an older Remington SP that I extracted from the gun after being chambered. Even though it fed, note the gouge from the feedramp. The forth is an untouched older Remington SP.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rounds02-1.jpg

below is a picture of a Korean mag that I removed with the round in the position in which it failed to feed. I've had failures to feed with numerous mags with numerous rounds. In this particular case it happened with the last round, but I have had it happen with different rounds.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rounds03-1.jpg

I admit that I have been incredibly lucky with feeding on my carbines, The only problems I have had in the last 30 years are: Wolf ammo from 30 rounders, FTFs with a carbine with a degraded (9 1/2") recoils spring, and Aguilla underpowered ammo.

Secrets to reliable feeding: USGI mags (15s and 30s) round bolt, good 10 1/4" recoil spring, and M2 magazine catch, type V or VI slide, well lubed. My CMP Inland with upgrades feeds everything and functions 100%.

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Originally Posted by EdL

below is a picture of a Korean mag that I removed

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It appears to me that the mag is sitting to low (worn locking tab or a 30 round mag and an early mag release) or the configuration of the mag (lips) is such that the round comes out to low. The deformed tips are catching on the feed ramp end. A simple polish (which does make things go smoother) would not fix this. Using the motto of only modifying the cheap part, I would not lower the feed ramp, but try to find out what the cause is and either modify or replace the mag.

The first thing I would do is to get at least one GI 15 round mag and see if the same thing happens. I suspect that they will function fine. If they do and you want to shoot soft point or hollow points use them, and/or find out what the problem is with the Korean 30 rounder.

I have shot lots of soft and hollow points in my carbines with never a hitch.

The failures I get are bolt over base issues with the round jammed into the rear edge of the chamber.

Turn your magazine spring around!

First, all of my magazines are 15 rounders.

While the feeding issue happens more dramatically with the Koren Mags, I have also had issues with US GI surplus mags--just not as dramatically as with the two Korean Mags. The same Korean mags have no issues with FMJ. The GI mags comprise a mix of used and NIW 15 round magazines.

I have a spreadsheet of failures that I have maintained that list the firearm, the ammo, and the magazine with which it occurred. Of the 7 or so magazines that I have, only two used GI ones have ever exhibitted a feeding issue with FMJ ammo. I probably have between 1200-1700 rounds total fired between the two carbines.

I want to point out that the round illustrated--the older Remington 110 grain SPs with lots of lead exposed represents the most extreme case of feeding problems.

The newer Remington SPs that have less lead exposed feed much better--but still exhibit occasional problems--maybe one failure to feed out of 15-40 rounds with some magazines. It hasn't malfunctioned with every magazine I have--but has done so enough with enough magazines including some that were bought NIW, that I have to wonder about it. One malfunction out of 50 rounds can be a serious issue if it occurs within the first few rounds fired in a self defense situation--in other words before the situation is over.

The Speer Gold Dot Soft point looks to be the most reliable feeding ammo--as I have only had malfunctions with magazines that have had failures to feed with hardball. I also have not fired enough of these rounds to determine if they can be depended upon. The fact that I may not have encountered issues in some magainzes may only be because I have not fired enough rounds in those particular magazines.

At this point if I had to use either of my M1 carbines for home defense I would rely on FMJ rounds in magazines that have proven trouble free. Even though some soft points have only malfunctioned once out of 30 or 40 rounds--there is no telling if that malfunction might occur after the second round or the 30th round.

I think one real value of the M1 carbine is that it is light and easy to shoot and easy to hit with, while producing minimal recoil and blast. Also it is fun to shoot, so a new shooter would be more likley to practice with it.

I let some college student from Taiwan shoot one of my carbines after brief instruction at how to operate it and use the sights and he managed to keep an entire 15 round magazine in a tennisball sized group at 21 feet shooting from offhand. He was at the range having never fired any firearm before and was previously trying to shoot a handgun with much less accuracy than he achieved with the M1 Carbine. The size and weight of the M1 carbine made it a good match for him. The guy might have been 5'2" tall and weighed in at about 110 lbs. If you gave him a 12 gauge or even a 20 gauge shotgun to fire, you might have put him in orbit.

I would like take a minute to reflect on the carbine being a collection of parts which combine to become a machine. Any misfunction of any part may negatively impact the function of the next supported part...

I have one Type IV trigger housing which was original to an IBM I got from CMP. I immediately replaced that housing after the carbine's first trip to the range. The housing had several major issues. The mag well was so tight that the housing metal actually cut into the metal of any magazine which was inserted. Additionally any magazine had to be forced to be seated. I replaced the mag catch several times, tried several magazines, etc. The magazines all worked and the carbine functioned good, but you had to litereally jam each mag into the mag well and force it to lock in place. The issue was that the housing has a dimention or two out of spec. You can see how it is different at the top of the mag well and in the area of the housing pin when compared to other IBM Type IV's. Since then I have used several different housings on that carbine and all of them work flawlessly.

I would look at things like your mag catch because it holds your magazine up and in position. I would also look at your trigger housing itself. If it does not mate correctly (within the proper tolerances) to the bottom of your receiver, your mag may be sitting lower than it is designed. This, in turn, would misallign the bullets with the feed ramp.

Just a thought...

He told me that a very large bear (brown..grizzly) came onto their AO in Alaska and they jumped into a jeep and shot said bear with a couple of carbines killing it dead as a doornail. So yeah, it will kill a man....easily.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

He told me that a very large bear (brown..grizzly) came onto their AO in Alaska and they jumped into a jeep and shot said bear with a couple of carbines killing it dead as a doornail. So yeah, it will kill a man....easily.

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I agree, I killed an almost 200 pound deer with one shot at almost 100 yards. It works!

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Originally Posted by Tired Retired

I would like take a minute to reflect on the carbine being a collection of parts which combine to become a machine. Any misfunction of any part may negatively impact the function of the next supported part....

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You may indeed be correct.

When I post here I am just reflecting my experience based on two M1 Carbines that I own--one I bought from a friend and the other that I bought from the CMP.

I'm not trying to suggest that my experience reflects on all M1 carbines out there.

My guns seem to work with FMJ and I will leave them as such, rather than try to make them work reliably with the soft points--since I honestly do not have the knowledge and skills to do the troubleshooting or even the super detailed disassembly.

Good clip from You-tube. M1 Carbine through 8 layers of frozen denim, an 6"x6" inch thick post, then demolishes a water jug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ktaTbgQsU

I think most shooters realize that the .30 Carbine round is a glorified pistol round, developed for a specific purpose, but it would be wrong to suggest it has anywhere near the same utility as it's big brother, the .30-06 Springfield.

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Originally Posted by Amsdorf

I think most shooters realize that the .30 Carbine round is a glorified pistol round, developed for a specific purpose, but it would be wrong to suggest it has anywhere near the same utility as it's big brother, the .30-06 Springfield.

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I would have to respectfully disagree with you about being a glorified pistol round. At the muzzle, it has 930 ft lbs, and at 100 yards, almost 600 ft lbs. The only "pistol" cartridge that approaches that is a 44 magnum. I have an S&W Model 29, 8 3/8", and it is nowhere near as handy or accurate at 100 yards as the carbine. 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W have about HALF the energy of the 30 carbine.

No one is comparing it to the 30-06! If you compare it to intermediate cartridges like the 5.56, it runs the same at 100 as the 5.56 at 200 from a 20" barrel. From a 14.5", the 5.56 BARELY passes the 30 carbine. It is NOT a main battle rifle, BUT it is an awesome PDW. It is way better than the FN 5.7 or some of the specific PDW hybrid rounds.

I was surprised myself at the amount of damage the 110 JSP did to the 200 pound deer I shot with one heart lung shot at almost 100 yards. When I field stripped and gutted it, one rib was taken out on entry, the heart was blasted, and two ribs taken out on exit. I had been carrying it as an LEO trunk weapon for a few years before, but it made me a believer. Are there better choices for 150 , 200, and beyond, sure. Most of its bad reputation came from Korea where distances were long over open ground and undisciplined full auto fire where nothing past the first round hit. I have shot an M2 and loved it, but anything more than a 2-3 shot burst is a waste, even for an experienced shooter.

I am pushing 60 with a bad back and bad shoulder, and very recently had a mild to moderate stroke. Toting a 10 pound M1a or M1 Garand is not an option for me. I know that my Inland with Remington 110 JSPs will put just as nasty a hole in a goblin as it did in my deer.

I've posted this link before: GREAT info.

M1 Carbines - M4Carbine.net Forums

If we're going there Amsdorf I can't agree either - It's no offensive weapon like a Garand, but it's much more effective than any hand gun which is what it was designed to replace. It did so well in the position of being better than a 1911A1 people started using them as offensive weapons. The carbines had more power than a hand gun and were much more accurate, so their hits were effective.

The carbine was an overachiever - It did too well in the job it was designed for. Then many people wanted to carry them into battle as their primary rifle. They were light, handy, ancurate, and had firepower with 20 round mags. They issued them to many paratroops after they found they worked fairly well as an offensive little battle riffle.