Webley MkVI in leather holster

This is a copy of a post on the British Militaria Forum The pictures are not displayed on that forum, so I hope that they will be visible here and somebody can answer my questions.

Up to now I have only seen Webleys in the canvas holsters. But I have just acquired a 1918 Mark VI. Number 102xxx, with "SOS" arrows and BNP civilian proof marks.

Attachment 25231

Obviously "low mileage", in perfect shooting condition, no wobbles, shakes or grinds, and with a fading blue finish rubbed in the places one would expect.

Attachment 25235

If you can't read the markings, that is because of my poor photography - they are all there, crisp and clear.

And it came packed in this:

Attachment 25232

Which I presume to be a military holster, as it has a square buckle on the back (can someone please tell me what that is for)

Attachment 25233

and a little brass lug on a side flap at the front,

Attachment 25234

which I can only assume is for the lanyard. Could someone please post a photo of the correct lanyard, and reveal how it was fixed so that it did not slip off the lug? Or is the square buckle for the lanyard? In which case, what is the purpose of this lug?

And finally - the leather is supple, but the original black surface finish has cracked and softened to the point where it comes off if you merely brush it with a fingernail. How can I preserve the leather? - I want to shoot the revolver, not keep it in a showcase! I would appreciate any advice based on long-term personal experience. I say long-term because what I have found on the forums varies from "do nothing at all" to complexe soaking and drying recipes, and some of that may be quick fixes that harm the leather over a long period.

Does the black finish give any clue as to the service use of this revolver? There are no regimental markings. Was it perhaps accepted by the army and then quickly sold out of service as surplus at the end of WW1?

Thanks for any information and advice!

Patrick
:wave:

Hello,Patrick
Try looking on karkeeweb.com under officer equipments. They have set displays which show how the loop and hook were used. The lanyard went around your neck. Hope this helps a little. Nice set by the way!

The brass hook engaged in the Sam Browne belt hole to keep the holster from sliding on the belt. The square buckle was for the shoulder strap to help support the weight of the whole affair. Remember these were worn up, not down on the hips.

As gsimmons suggested - here's the link with the explanation that you need http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/of...po_pistol.html

So...what was wrong with my explanation?

Nothing, timing of our postings - you were doing yours while I was doing mine - and I was slower than you

As for preserving the holster, try contacting "saddler". He knows leather.

Thanks to all for these very enlightening replies!
Just two questions remaining: does the black coloring give any clue as to the service use? And should I treat the leather, or leave it alone?

Patrick
:wave:

I PM'd saddler, but in the meantime I found this discussion regarding leather care:

Restoration of leather slings

It doesn't directly deal with the retention of the black dressing, except in the last post. ( I forgot to mention your flaky finish in my PM, but maybe he'll have some ideas.) I have a feeling that there not much to be done for it outside of what's discussed in the other thread though. But I'd like to be proven wrong!

Many thanks jmoore! That is precisely the thread that stuck in my memory as having caused me worry and confusion. From it I deduce 1) no neatsfoot oil - but surely that is animal-derived oil? Or does it have dubious additives? 2) No petroleum-based components - fine, if manufacturers would only come clean as to what they use in these brews. One may assume that the competition has long ago analysed the product, so the reticence is probably in order to keep the buyer unaware. - My suspicion with regard to many such products is that if buyers knew exactly what was involved, they would realise that they could makes up gallons of the stuff for a fraction of the price!

So how about the Flexolan?

Patrick
:wave:

I think staight up lanolin might be a conservative route, but my leather knowledge is mighty shallow. I can make it (only deer and squirrel hides so far), but keeping it for ages is WAY out of my league.

I believe black colored leather gear was associated with one or two British regiments, I can't recall which. Black leather was also used by the "Black and Tans" in Ireland.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amatikulu

I believe black colored leather gear was associated with one or two British regiments,

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The Rifle Brigade (dark green uniforms and black facings and belts), now The Rifles Regiment. From it's inception right up to now. (Thanks to contributors on the British Militaria Forum for that information!)

Patrick

Leather Dressing

...was kindly PM'd about this thread by my namesake "jmoore" - there's a lot of us about!! - as I have not been on here recently due to family commitments, etc.

In no particular order.
As has already been mentioned the black leather was used by Rifle Regiments. Some British & Colonial Police also used black leather.

The surface flaking may be old polish that is falling off, or it may be the actual hide degrading.
IF the latter, use the item below then apply a plain black polish (KIWI brand if you can find it - has a very high wax content)


THE leather dressing I was told about by the saddler that trained me, who was told about it by the OLD saddler that trained me, is a product by Carr, Day & Martin KO-CHO-LINE

Looks like:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oChoLine-1.jpg

Send me your address & I will send you a tin free

Ignore the instructions about applying it with a cloth, as, unless you use the same piece of cloth every time, all you do then is apply more to the dry cloth than you apply to the leather. The tip I was given was to use ONE piece of cloth but keep it in a small plastic bag, attached to the tin with a rubber band (or IN the tin once space there is available)

Neatsfoot IS a natural product BUT it is just the shin fat from young calves. NOT very technical reasoning behind its use & it is a very low tech product that is too easy to do more harm than good with!
The saddler that trained me said AVOID ALL neatsfoot oil; not just the synthetic versions, ALL

I have passed on the same advice to several other users on many forums & not one has come back to say that KO-CHO-LINE didn't do exactly what I said it would....
By contrast, I HAVE had several very negative reports about Neatsfoot showing a temporary fix to a dry leather problem, then causing the leather to become more brittle & crack badly

IF you'd like a free tin please drop me a line

Thank you saddler for a very generous offer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saddler

By contrast, I HAVE had several very negative reports about Neatsfoot showing a temporary fix to a dry leather problem, then causing the leather to become more brittle & crack badly

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That is exactly the kind of clear statement I was looking for. Last time I was in the UK I bought a tin of neatsfoot oil, having given up trying to explain to Germans what the stuff is. (One might as well try and explain cricket! ) But I got cold feet about using it on the Webley holster.

As I shall be coming to the UK again in a few weeks, it would surely save postage if you sent the tin to the address in the UK.

PM is on its way as soon as I sign off here!

Patrick
:wave:

Picards makes a great leather treatment as well

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saddler

The surface flaking may be old polish that is falling off, or it may be the actual hide degrading. IF the latter, use the item below then apply a plain black polish (KIWI brand if you can find it - has a very high wax content)

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A friend just purchased this at the local "po po sto" - i.e. the law enforcemnt supply store:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff001-2.jpg

I tried out the Webley at 25 meters yesterday, using 265 gns RN-HB Silver Moly bullets from WM. The very first shot was a 10X. I hate that - you just know it can only go downhill from there - and it did. OK, all shots in the black, and the blackening on th eoutside of the cases indicates that my "chicken" load can be increased quite a bit.

Then I tried the 255 gn FN-HB bullets. I had expected that the cylindrical shape would help accuracy. Wrong. Shots were all over the paper, with no semblance of a group. I can only hope that increasing the quantity of powder will help.

The good news: as this was a "running-in" session, I cleaned the bore after every shot. It started off looking good, but at the end of the session it looked perfect! And the mechanism is a joy.

Back to the reloading bench. And if anyone out there has some experience of using these heavy bullets, I would be delighted to hear about it.

Patrick
:wave:

My first revolver was a Webley but it was a .38/200. I never owned a big one but I'd still like to have one. As regards the holster, about everything worth saying has already been mentioned. The holsters were made in a bewildering variety over the years, even though they were all essentially the same, intended to be worn on a Sam Browne belt. Some had straps and buckles on the back, others just loops and not all had the little hook. There were open top issue versions, too. I don't think any were made for the small frame Webleys.

A true collector would urge great caution with doing anything with old leather but something along the lines of conservation would probably be in order. I use both oil and leather dressing, both Obernauf, but I can't recommend it over anything else. It shouldn't harm the leather, however, and probably neatsfoot oil won't either. Leather boots and shoes that have had the army treatment, as apparently this holster has, eventually will crack. Both the Rifle Brigade and the King's Royal Rifle Corps, plus other regiments and corps with rifle traditions might have used black but the color may even be a very dark brown. In any event, since you have the revolver, you should look for a reproduction holster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueTrain

In any event, since you have the revolver, you should look for a reproduction holster.

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Quite right. :thup:The original will not be used for everyday shooting. For transport to the range I have a locked handgun wallet that goes into a locked equipment case that is locked in the boot of my car. Nothing is foolproof, but any thieves will have to work hard to get at my revolver. Which is what the regulations require.

Patrick
:wave: