Benchrest Shooting the 03/03A3

I pose a couple of questions, I do quite a bit of benchrest shooting with my 1903/03A3 rifles and I use my non-firing hand to assist in pulling the rifle into my shoulder by grabbing the rear sling mount and pushing it to the rear. Does anyone else do this when shooting off a bench or do you use another method of controlling the rifle? I read an article where the author uses his non-firing hand to pull the forearm of the rifle into the support bags he places under his forend. He claims this is the best way of maintaining control of the rifle until the bullet exits the barrel. He also states that recoil starts rearward "push" the instant the powder charge ignites. Others believe recoil doesn't take place until the bullet leaves the barrel. Does anyone have any thoughts in these areas? Good Shooting......Rick H.

I use my off hand to support the butt as you do. I make sure the forearm is solidly supported by a sand bag. I believe recoil starts before the bullet exits the barrel.

Your gurus may know something about guns, but obviously know little about physics. If looking at gas expansion only, the gas expands equally in all directions, so any rearward force is exactly balanced by the same forward force, net = 0. Talking about the timing of the beginning of recoil has been confused with cause of recoil. The timing depends on a combination of variables including powder burn characteristics and barrel length, so no blanket statement is possible. Just like in the gas example, when the bullet starts to move from the applied gas force, the gun starts to move in the opposite direction from the same cause. If the gun is restrained, then the force is dissipated in the apparatus doing the restraining - mostly as heat. Again, net = 0.

The system reacts to applied forces. Ask your expert how the gun knows when the bullet exits the barrel so it can know it's time to start recoil. How, then, would a flash hider or muzzle brake affect performance. The question fails the laugh test.

Firstflaban: I don't recall saying anything in my thread about ANYONE being a "guru". What I said, if you would have truly read my post, was that I read an article in which the author believes recoil started the moment the primer ignited the powder charge in a cartridge. What I was looking for was information, pro or con regarding that statement. I wasn't looking for a smart guy response. Now I may not be as well educated as you are nor was I able to sit in school taking physics classes, but I am a firm believer that in a quest for knowledge one must ask questions and that the only stupid question is the one that goes un-asked. By the way, I wasn't laughing when I posted my thread so where did the "laugh test" come from?

If you have "Hatcher's Notebook" be sure and read his chapter on the theory of recoil. He explains that any gun starts moving backward at the exact instant the bullet starts moving forward.

Primer setback, however small, would also induce a tiny amount of rearward motion. This occurs before bullet movement, as the primer cup is very light and is the rear part of a tiny combustion chamber of it's own. It you think it's too small to measure, I think John Garand would have disagreed. His original operating system used primer set-back to initiate unlocking.

As for controlling the rifle effectively off the bench, I just grab the forend normally as you would when shooting offhand. I rest the back of my hand on whatever rest is present. Padding is nice! One benefit is that there's less likelihood of a major zero shift when shooting in other positions, with the understanding that sling use also then becomes a factor.

I have also used your method of gripping the buttstock, Rick H, but usually on free floated (usually heavy) barreled rifles, those with bipods, and some semi-autos. I guess it's just whatever gives YOU the best results.

Hatcher also explained that a revolver's sights and barrel are not aligned at the same place. The barrel is actually pointing down, and as the revolver starts it's recoil before the bullet has exited the barrel, the barrel comes into alignment with the target as the bullet exits. No matter how tight you hold the pistol, you cannot overcome the initial recoil while the bullet is in the barrel.

My approach has always been to repeat the same actions each round. I rest the rifle in the same postion, I am in the same place, the rest and butt stock bag is in the same place, any pressure I apply is in the same place and same amount with each shoot. There is no way to control the recoil so just deal with it the same way each time. That should put the round in the same place, at least as close as possible, each time.

To me, the more you try to do all this pulling mentioned by the OP, the more the pulling will vary shot to shot.

I shoot a lot of NRA 1000yd. F-TR class competition. We compete from the prone position with bipod in front and bags in the rear. In my experiance and several others, you must hold the forearm straight down for best accuracy. Letting it free recoil in the front, opened my groups up and lowered my scores. ( it really shows up at 1000) Have tried it several times with different powers, bullets and it has never shown any advantage over a firm downward forearm grip. At 100yds it might not show up but at 300yds it will.
Black powder cartridge rifles seem to respond just the opposite.

Physics is not a 'smart guy' response. It is a way of explaining the way forces work. You asked a question that required physics to answer. Would you have been happier with no answer? We all have plenty to learn and the great thing about this forum is everybody brings something to the table. 'Gurus' was a bit sarcastic - I didn't want to open with a conclusion, but rather go on to give a reasoned explanation of what a preposterous theory had been presented to you. The laugh test describes the struggle to suppress a laugh when hearing something from someone so colossally uninformed as what you described. The only dumb question is one somebody exerted no effort to figure out for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Rick H.

Others believe recoil doesn't take place until the bullet leaves the barrel. Does anyone have any thoughts in these areas? Good Shooting......Rick H.

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I suppose that from a practical standpoint, the question isn't literally "Does the recoil take place after the bullet leaves the barrel", but rather, has the bullet long since left the barrel by the time that the recoil has overcome the inertia of the mass of the rifle enough to affect the trajectory of the bullet. There are a lot of variables implicit in that question. Barrel length, rifle mass, bullet weight, powder charge, and possible other variables would all play a role. Frankly, I'm not sure.

Some good old reference books on rifle accuracy below. The info within may not be specific to '03s but it will make you think about more of the factors involved in getting your bullets to go where you want.:

Warren Page's The Accurate Rifle is virtually required reading if you want to be anything more than a trigger puller.
http://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Rifle.../dp/1886681066


Stuart Otteson's The Bolt Action is much more technical, but is worth having- the appendices alone will give you great insight into what makes a design efficient and accurate. It DOES have an entire chapter devoted to the 1903 Springfield action. Umm, he doesn't pull punches, BTW.
http://www.amazon.com/Bolt-Action-De.../dp/0876911750

Harold Vaughn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts is a bit more "hands on" and, to me, a bit odd, but shows what results a bit of tweaking can achieve.
http://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Accuracy.../dp/1931220085

Sorry that the above are sales links, and may expire, but in the short term it'll steer you in the right direction.

Johnny Peppers has already mentioned Hatcher's work. Another required bit of reading to be sure!

I'm sure there's more new good books, but those came to mind immediately. Read them. More than once. Then refer to pertinent sections as required.

Thanks to everyone that responded to this post. It is obvious that we all have differing views on this subject and use whatever works best for us. I am going to do something a little bit differently next time I go to the range with my 03 in regards to how I hold it. If things go the way I think they will I should have somewhat better results. I would have to think that holding just the rear of standard weight rifle stock may NOT result in the best groups when shooting off a bench. I guess I got into this position from shooting heavyweight tactical rifles and just carried it into shooting my 03's and 03A3's. In any event I will see what happens......

Rick H.