Newbie Needs Advice on M1 Carbine Rear Sight

Hello. My husband, a VietNam combat vet, has a Winchester M1 carbine that is missing its rear sight. He doesn't remember where he obtained the carbine, but thinks it may have been while he was working for the U.S. Government in Central America. In any case, I have the serial number of the carbine, it's in the 1137XXX series. Can anyone tell me the age of this carbine? I found an M1 Garand with our serial number that was manufactured in 1942, but I'm not clear on the Garand vs. Winchester branding.

My main reason for writing is to get advice on what rear sight to put on this carbine. Hubby's housebound due to lung disease, but I shot the carbine (without a rear sight!) and did OK. Just a slightly bruised cheek, and I knew something wasn't right with the gun!

I'm kind of an OEM-type girl, so ideally, I would want a sight that would have been originally on this carbine. Can one of you experts give me some advice on what I should mount as a rear sight on this carbine, and where I might find one? At the same time, I'm not a gun collector, and don't want to spend a fortune, so I welcome comments on what I should install.

Thanks a lot. AnnieO

There is no relation between the M1 Carbine serial number and that of the M1 Rifle. In order to know which sight, we would have to see some pretty good pictures to tell if it underwent a government rebuild, which it most likely did. In this case it would have the adjustable sight and a bayonet lug extension on the barrel band. I don't have the date information, but all carbines were made during WWII. Most all of them were revised/upgraded over the years after the war, and they were in service for many years. Here is a link to a typical Type III sight that would have been installed on rebuilds as well as some later originals.
http://cgi.ebay.com/M1-Carbine-rear-...item19c78bf249

From factory records your receiver had its serial number stamped on in late June 1943, so a reasonable guess is that the carbine was completed in July. As has been pointed out, a photo of the rear sight base will tell alot. A photo of the safety from the right side, the front barrel band, barrel marking just behind front sight, and stock markings, particularly in the sling well (near the butt on the left side), will also help. If all of those turn out to point toward a gun in original configuration, then a complete listing of parts markings would then need to be compiled.

If it turns out that you have a rebuild, replacing just the rear sight, safety, front band, and stock to restore the gun to original configuration could easily cost you $400 - and is fraught with peril, especially to a newbie, as repro parts abound. And that could be just the start - many small parts would still need to be located.

AnnieO,

Build date around June 1943.

There is a big difference in price depending on which one you choose.

Guessing if it was used it Central America it has been through a rebuild.

If so it might have the arsenal updated bayonet lug type 3 band, first picture. In that case an adj sight would be OK. They are about $25-$30. Second picture. This is still a US GI part. Just used in later production and added during arsenal updated. You can ask here on the WTB listing or look on line for one. Should be pretty easy to find.

Your carbine originally had a thin type 1 front barrel band, third picture is of a repo band but is the same style. Then it would take a leaf sight with a square S on the base. They cost about $125-$175. Fourth picture is for a Rock-Ola not a Winchester but is the same style. You could put a WTB listing here, but this will take some hunting. It is also highly sought after by collectors.

But even if it has a type 1 band nothing says you can't put on an adj sight and not spend the money for a leaf sight. I am guessing you just want to put on a rear sight and not try and put it back into original configuration. That would cost bigger dollars.

Good luck.


Type 3 barrel band and adj rear sight

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rrelband-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...earsight-1.jpg

Repo type 1 barrel band and leaf rear sight

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rrelband-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/BRsite-1.jpg

Thanks, y'all. I'm having problems putting my pix onto the site. Using my Nikon JPEG format, and msg says file too big. Based on JimF4M1's comments, it sounds like this carbine was rebuilt. It does indeed have the bayonet mount. Hubby says the rear sight he remembers it having is the leaf (or flip?) type, but since he lost it somewhere along the line, and it seems the carbine was rebuilt for use in Central America, might as well go with the adjustable rear site in the 30-40$ range. We're not collectors. I just like to target shoot with my Jeep friends. I didn't do too bad with no rear sight at all, but she kept kicking me in the cheek :-)

I'm afraid 'kicking you in the cheek' has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the carbine has a rear sight. I don't know what it has to do with since I've never heard of it before, but you are doing something wrong. A possibility is the carbine is loose in the stock which can magnify the recoil impulse. See if the screw at the back of the receiver is snug and the recoil plate under the screw is not loose.

I would guess that without a rear sight to look through she is keeping her head up to look down the top of the gun and this is causing her to hold her head too high to get a proper cheek weld which allows the stock to get a running start which wacks her in the face . If so , installing the rear sight will force her to get a cheek weld to look through it and get rid of the kicking problem automatically.
Chris

Agree

I agree with emmagee1917 too, and I was going to say I could see how trying to shoot an unfamiliar little rifle without a sight could cause someone to position their cheek in an odd position trying to get some reference to aim with. Most of here have shot these things thousands of times and wouldn't have a problem but we're already familiar.

I'm a pistol target shooter normally, so all rifles/carbines basically are unfamiliar. Without the rear sight, I had my face way down trying to look for something to line the front sight up with. All I could find was the half-moon groove in the wooden stock. This caused me to be practically looking over the rifle butt which resulted in taking the kick in the cheek. Replacing that missing rear sight will resolve my aiming problem without a doubt. Appreciate the helpful comments as I go in search of the appropriate rear sight. Still would like to pop a leaf or flip rear sight in there as that's what Hubby says he remembers the carbine having. How do you lose the rear sight off your carbine that you never shoot?

They're just held in place by wedging into a dove tail (right side to the left) and usually staked (punch mark) to hold them in place, so they can get loose and fall off. Also, original leaf sites are now very expensive and have been desirable for quite a while so maybe someone 'borrowed' it.

For a shooter rifle and plinking the adjustable sights have a lot of merit. They designed it as a replacement because it functioned better with it's versatility of adjustments. I understand your desire to have original USGI parts and I agree. Just wanted to let you know the little leaf sights are very expensive collectibles (over $100) and difficult to find originals. There's probably 50 or more fakes being sold for authentic for every authentic one found, and even many people familaiar with carbines can't tell an authentic leaf sight from a $10 reproduction by looking at photos on sale sites.

Unless you are trying to 'restore' the carbine to the original configuration of June 1943 (very expensive and difficult to do right) the USGI adjustable sight, either the milled or stamped version, is by far the better sight. That's why Uncle Sam developed them. The adjustable sights are much easier to get your shot where you want it to be on your target and also give you better selection of elevation (range) adjustment than the older fixed leaf type flip sight. I personnally think the earlier milled adjustable sight is a better made sight than the later stamped version but they both work very well and they are both available at a very reasonable price. JMHO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnnieO

I'm a pistol target shooter normally, so all rifles/carbines basically are unfamiliar.

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Annie,

Going off subject a bit, but you mentioned it. What kind of pistols do you shoot? Brand, model, caliber? Just nosey.

Have fun. Jim

I would have to agree that the milled is a little nicer and that either stamped or milled they are nicer as far as shooting as they're windage and heoght adjustable were as the flip type sights are not. Here's a very good price for a milled sight. I have purchased from this outfit many many times.

Rear Sight, Middle Issue, Milled


Let me know if you have any questions

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChipS

Unless you are trying to 'restore' the carbine to the original configuration of June 1943 (very expensive and difficult to do right) the USGI adjustable sight, either the milled or stamped version, is by far the better sight. That's why Uncle Sam developed them. The adjustable sights are much easier to get your shot where you want it to be on your target and also give you better selection of elevation (range) adjustment than the older fixed leaf type flip sight. I personnally think the earlier milled adjustable sight is a better made sight than the later stamped version but they both work very well and they are both available at a very reasonable price. JMHO

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnnieO

Thanks, y'all. I'm having problems putting my pix onto the site. Using my Nikon JPEG format, and msg says file too big.

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They need to be resized. Native pics from the camera will be way too big to post on any Internet web site, as it would a very long time for anyone to open and view them. ;)

They need to be re-sized using Microsoft's Re-sizer program, or if you want, email them to me at badger@milsurps.com and I'll re-size them for you, as well as host and post them in this thread.

Regards,
Doug

AnnieO sent me the pics, of which I will post the ones that seem to be of use.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../annieo4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../annieo6-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../annieo2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../annieo3-1.jpg

The carbine looks to be refinished (blued) after the rebuild refinish (Parkerizing) and the stock has been cleaned up and finished. The rear sight dovetail may have been used with a scope mount at some point, but does show the staking for a flip sight. I wonder if it's a Bavarian?

The finish looks more black then blue. I don't think it's a Bavarian but it is a nice Winchester. And as stated has only the flip sight stake marks so a prime one for restoration but very expensive to do.

My two cents on carbine sights.

It partly depends upon your intended use. If you are the only one who will be using the carbine. If you will be shooting at either short range, or known range (say a 100 yd. gun range), you can adjust the windage on a flip sight, and stake it down well. Similarly file the front sight and you are good to go. If you wish the elevation adjustments on the later sights to be on, you have to adjust the front sight anyway.

Within this limitation, I find the flip sight to be more convenient (truck gun) than the later. I also am not worried that the flip sight is a reproduction (this carbine is a shooter- reproduction folding stock, commercial barrel, well pitted receiver, rest of the parts by mixmaster).

It has later parts installed, who knows by who. Slide, type three band, safety. Can't tell if there is a rebuild marking on the stock.

She mentioned she didn't want to spend a fortune. I would find a nice milled USGI adj rear sight, install it and have fun shooting it.

Annie, PM me your address and I'll send you a type III adjustable sight at no cost to you. And, I believe I have one that is nearly black in color. This will get your husband's carbine up and running and I would be delighted to be of help.

Now that's a helpful moderator. Oh Bill, I'm needing a springtube Rock-Ola. Just one will be OK.

Joking aside, nice going Bill.

:), If I had, it would be yours! ;)

That's a very nice gesture Bill! (Electronic attaboy dude!) :super:
I used to have a couple of them lying around here and tried to find one yesterday but couldn't find one anywhere.

I had the opportunity to give a returning three tour Afganistan vet a needed part I just had laying around and shipped it out to his old friend yesterday so it'll get there in time - What an honor, and it really was appreciated! His old friend bought him a 1903 as a gift because the vet always wanted one and it's a surprise when he returns. How COOL is that!

There have been so MANY GREAT people who've helped me over the years it feels so nice to give back, even in a small way. Gun guys are some of the best people I know.

I've done this quite a bit on this site and others. It is really not that big of a deal. I would rather see the carbine, jeep, Garand or whatever up and running than make a dime off some of the stuff I have. Most is take-offs or trading material that I have had for years. Besides, there have been a few here and other sites that have done the same for me. Returning the favor! Maybe it will come around to me again soon. ;)

You know Harlan, kind of like that WWII helmet you gifted to one of our great members here.

Pay it Forward

Exactly!

How lucky am I that I stumbled upon your website (and figured out how to post a message to the forum, even if I couldn't post my photos without Inland44's doing it for me).

You're a great bunch of knowledgeable people, and I thank you for your comments and help.

Hubby was touched, as well. He's US Army retired Master Sergeant with two tours in VietNam (First Cav and Special Forces), and he's now homebound with severe COPD.

Bill, you made a vet happy.

Jim, I shoot a Czech-made Browning Model-83, 380 (although for some odd reason it's
marked Cal. 9 mm on the barrel?) As 380's are sometimes called 9mm Shorts, I guess that's why the barrel says Cal. 9 mm. Nine mm ammo does not fit, though, it's definitely a 380. Maybe it's a translation/language problem since it was made by CZ. I really like the size and weight, and she shoots real well for me.

Thanks, y'all! I'll be back with future gun questions! Regards, Annie O :)

9mm 'kurz', corto' or 'short' is a european designation for the .380 ACP. Both the 9mm Luger (9x19) and the .380 ACP have 9mm diameter bullets (.355"). I can't explain why the barrel is just marked '9mm' on a .380 - that could really cause some trouble. Typically a 9mm round will get stuck in a .380 barrel if it is attempted to be loaded.

Just to let y'all know, our wonderful moderator Bill gifted my husband and I with an adjustable rear sight for our Winchester M1 carbine, c. 1943. Hubby and I tapped the rear sight into the carbine with a hammer (and folder dish towel to protect all metal parts) and I took the M1 to the range yesterday which is a monthly activity in my Jeep group.

For an almost-70-year-old gal, the M1 with new used rear sight performed wonderfully and was fun to shoot. I am not an experienced long gun shooter, and despite the fact that this was the first time I have EVER shot right-eyed (I am right-handed but left-eye dominant), plus I later realized I had the rear sight set on the wrong setting--it should have been all the way forward, but I had it all the way back (I was shooting about 20 yards from the target), I shot a great cluster just a little high and right of the bulls-eye.

So the M1 impressed me, and the rear sight helped considerably. I even figured out why I was getting hit in the cheek the first time I shot her with no rear sight: I was using my left eye to aim, but holding the carbine right-handed. You can't get your face positioned correctly trying to use your left eye while holding the carbine right-handed.

So, next time at the range, I'm expecting a bunch of bulls-eyes from her because I will be using the correct eye for aiming, and I will set the rear sight at the correct setting. I also learned I shoot better wearing my reader glasses so I can really get a good look at the sights!

So thanks to all for your help on my M1 carbine questions and issues. And special thanks to Bill for hooking us up with a rear sight. Hard to shoot her correctly with no rear sight at all, esp when you're using the wrong eye to aim! LOL!

You should know that in rifles the bullet will be below the line of sight at the muzzle. I will rapidly climb and cross the line of sight . Most rifles , reguardless of caliber , do this around 20-30 yds out. From then on the bullet is above the line of sight and climbing until 50-75 yds out , then will slowly drop. Your sights are made to zero the rifle in this drop phase . !st is 100-150 yds , second is 200 , third is 250 and forth is 300.
If you shoot really close up , you will have to play with the elevation settings to find the right ones even if it's dead on at the longer ranges.
Of course , if it's not sighted in , anything goes.
It's great people help each other out here.
Enjoy , Chris

Pam, I forgot to ask but how did the color/finish match up with your Winchester? I knew the H in a shield (Hemphill Mfg. Co.) was right for the Winchester and I gave you the darkest one I had. I hope it matched up. :super:

Before shooting again, center the peep sight with the windage knob. Depending on the exact sight you have, there should be index marks on the back so you can center the aperture. Now set the aperture to the bottom setting, '1-1.5'. You can now fire at 20 to 25 yds WITHOUT MOVING THE APERTURE and record how far left or right you are hitting. If you are still hitting right of the aiming point, you'll have to move the rear sight base more to the left. The sight base will get tighter in the dovetail the more you move it left, so there comes a point on most carbines where additional force may break the dovetail off the receiver, so be mindful of that. Assuming you can move it more left, do so in very small stages. Then fire again and check. Repeat until you get dead on or the sight gets too tight. If you're still a little off, you can turn the windage knob to move the aperture the rest of the way, usually just a few clicks. At this point the sight should be staked in place so it doesn't move. If this is not possible, there is a Loctite product that is made to secure already assembled parts. Just put a drop at a time under the base where it meets the receiver and it'll 'wick' into the joint and lock the sight base.
Now the aperture should not be moved off the '1-1.5' setting unless shooting at 200 yards or more. Elevation adjustments are made with the front sight blade; if you're too low, the blade needs to be shortened. If too high, a new unfiled sight is required. Most shooters would not remove an original/correct front sight for this purpose but would just learn to hold 'under' a bit or learn the '6 o'clock hold' which means you aim at a point below the target, as if the target were a clock. If you want to hit the center, you aim at the 6 o'clock position. This was the theory by which the carbine sighting was designed. The military acceptance targets from WWII and later allow as much as 12" high at 100 yards. In fact, the acceptance zone starts at the 6 o'clock position and goes up, not down, on both the 25 yd and 100 yd targets. 5 out of 7 shots had to be within the acceptance zone or cutting the edge line. More than two shots below the zone would be cause for front sight adjustment.
If I had to guess, based on your description, I'd say by setting the aperture at the correct range and shifting the base to the left should put you on target at 20-25.

Addendum: I forgot something - you didn't say if the aperture was centered in the sight base when you fired, or if you moved it with the windage knob to adjust. Whether or not to move the sight base or by how much depends on the position of the aperture when you last fired. The best thing would be that you would have to crank it to left a few clicks to center it. This would most likely get you on line and the sight base would then be locked into position without further movement.
The worst thing would be if the aperture is already cranked way left, meaning the sight base would have to move left a lot in order to be on line with a centered aperture.
The final option is to just crank a few clicks left on the aperture regardless of base position and let it go at that, but unsecured sights tend to shoot loose.

Bill: The color matches up well, thank you. I will take a picture, and maybe Inland44 can help me post it again.

Thanks, all for the comments on aligning the rear sight. I will see how she does next time at the range with the rear sight forward on the 1/1.5.

One more question: do y'all collect/have knowledge of foreign guns, as well as US weapons? I ask because hubby recently discovered he had brought his old Luger pistol here to GA, as well as the M1 carbine. So far, he has researched online and found out it is probably c. 1908. It seems real loose to me, so I won't be firing it, but I can take a photo if you folks are knowledgable about German weapons as well as US arms?

Thanks, all. Annie O.

Pam, try posting it here:

Other Military Service Pistols and Revolvers

Some is bound to know something about it.

Annie, the Luger is known as the 'P.08' because it was adapted in 1908. They were made from then until the middle of WWII, except for an interruption after WWI. If you have one that is actually from 1908, that would be a find. As a quick read, post the serial number (like 1234b) and any numbers appearing on top, on the barrel ring or toggle parts.