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It caused my son to be DQed in vintage bolt match
What can I do to get it to make the 3.5 lbs limit?
I have replaced cocking piece and striker spring
Cocking piece looked tampered with
It is heavier but is not two stage
1st stage is gone and trigger flops when cocked?
The cocking bent (face) of the cocking piece is at to steep an angle, and the trigger pressure required for the sear to slip off the face of the cocking piece is to low.
Peter Laidler has written up a detailed explaination of getting the proper two stage trigger pull off sorted.
Hope this helps.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...arts%201-3.pdf
Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Your sons No4 trigger weight should be between 3 and 4 lbs at first pull and between 5 to 6.5 lbs for the 2nd pull-off so would confirm to the Camp Perry spec if it was properly adjusted. This is measured with the trigger tester spring balance at the same angle as would be the trigger finger
They use a 3 1/2 pound weight
It has to pick the weight up 1 inch to pass
His was light
there is more to this than I hoped.............
bump to top
If you follow Mr. Laidler's directions it will pass the test. And it sounds harder than it really is. Just takes patience.
what provides trigger return for 1st stage?
If you read the articles and look at the photos you'll see that there is a spring involved. If your son's trigger is doing what you say it is then it is a dangerous trigger that I would think is prone to firing on a whim instead of when the shooter wants it to. And that is more likely the reason he was DQ'd at the match. An under 3 1/2 pound trigger is not something a standard rifle should have. My varmint rifles are at 3 1/2 lbs but even my sniper rifles were at least 4 lbs.
A bench rest rifle can be less than the limit I have but you are asking for trouble with less on any other rifle.
I would encourage you once again to read the articles and look at the pictures with the rifle in your hand. Then you'll understand what is happening in there. I have no way to make you understand how it works - unless I want to repeat Peter's work. And that has been provided for you earlier in the thread.
Ok
I have read it many times
The question is
I loose 1st pull on a closed bolt.
I do not see that coverd.........
Only those that would like to help me need respond
2nd pull off is much better after the replaced parts.
It will make weight now
I need to get first pull back (it was never there)
Trigger bents are unmodified
trigger pulls through both bends when out of rifle or if bolt is removed
Sounds like the sear spring might not be doing what it's supposed to. I too have noticed that in the notes there is no "lost the first pull" situation directly addressed. And while I can't from your description give you a clear instruction on how to fix it, I can suggest that you do like I did and remove the barrelled action from the forend, and then screw the trigger guard to it with the crush collar in place. Then put the bolt in and check function of the trigger, if you have a similar pull to when the rifle is assembled, you'll be able to see how the trigger, sear and striker are ineracting and this will give you a very good idea of which areas need adjustment (adjustment to be done when the rifle is reassembled).
If when you pull the barrelled action and assemble it with the trigger guard the trigger pull is nothing like the assembled rifle you could pack the trigger guard a bit here and there to try to set up the trigger pull situation you have with the rifle assembled.
This means of making it visual has helped me with a number of rifles and for me it helped get a far better grip on the mass of information in the articles to which you have been referring.
SANAFU...... I've done one or two of these and before you get lead up the garden path any further and cutting through the cra......, er, unnecessary waffle, the first thing we need to know, even before we go anywhere else is this........
Is your rifle a Mk1 or 1/1 or is it a Mk1/2, 1/3 or a 2. Just a simple answer is all that's required and we'll take it further then.
Peter
It a No 4 MK1
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=25065
Thank you for any help and your time.
Our national matches are coming up and I do not want him DQ again
It would pass weight test now
But in reading your writings I know it not right.
All my M1s/ARs/03s and carbines are right.
He was very close to a medal score last year.
I was kind of glad he crashed on offhand because if he had shot a medal score and gotten DQ.........it would have really hurt him
I notice first stage is different will mag outQuote:
Originally Posted by tbonesmith
It is 100% will mag out
If slipped in I loose first stage
If slammedit it seem better but not quit like no mag?
I'll stay out of this one now.
Now that we've established that it is a Mk1 rifle, I'll side track for a second to tell you why removing the magazine has altered the trigger pressure. It's because the sear spring is anchored to the rear of the magazine catch and when you release the magazine, the catch springs forwards slightly under the load of the sear spring and therefore decreases the other end load on the sear and therefore the trigger pressure.
This is going to take an hour or so to put into readable and none-toooooo- technical words. So bear with me and I'll come back to you.
But first, I want you to unscrew the front trigger guard screw from tight until you hear it 'click' as it overturns the thread that tells you that the screw is free of the female thread. You can screw it in and out a couple of times just to ensure that you have the CORRECT amount of turns. I want it to be correct to the nearest 1/8th of a turn. I also want you to make sure that the 1/4" spring washer is present between the head of the screw and trigger guard
Peter
You want me to counr the turn until snug?
Spring washer is there
Count the turns from TIGHT to FREE........
Now it’s time to strip the rifle. You can leave the butt on. The first thing I want you to do is place the trigger guard on a flat surface like a sheet of glass and ensure that it is dead flat. Please don’t listen to those tinkerers who tell you that you can adjust the trigger pull offs and pressure by bending the trigger guard. Believe me, if you could, it'd be detailed in the EMER and real Armourers would have been doing it that way since 1907 - but you can't..... The trigger guard has to be flat. Now that you’ve got all that, put the trigger guard and trigger back onto the rifle WITHOUT the fore-end. Insert the rear screw, then the collar at the front, washer and front screw. If it takes A x/8 turns to undo and tighten the front screw with the fore-end on, then it should take A x/8 to undo and tighten the screw with the fore-end OFF but with the collar fitted. If it doesn’t, then you’ve got to decrease or increase the length of the collar until it does. But we’re going to assume that it does….
Cock the rifle and now CAREFULLY squeeeeeze the trigger and watch the action of the lower cam ‘hump’ of the trigger. Look carefully as it rotates and it should rotate the sear until the upper cam touches the same trigger bearing surface of the sear. This is the first pressure and it should be between 3 to 4 pounds pressure to achieve this. If it doesn’t, don’t worry….., we’ll come back to it. But importantly, the nose of the sear should be JUST on the break point of the sear bent of the cocking piece. The next thou of movement of the trigger should fire the rifle. If it doesn’t, then you’ve got to adjust the lower hump if it fires too early and the top hump if it fires too late. To read up about this you’ll have to read up on the thread I wrote a couple of years ago.
Now, we’ll jump to where your rifle pull-offs are absolutely perfect in every way. A good clean first pull and a crisp and even break with no drag whatsoever for the second pull. But alas, while the pull-offs are perfect, the weights are up the creek……….
Incidentally, before we get down to the nitty-gritty of trigger pressures, one thing that can upset the pull-off weight poundage is a broken or soft F/P spring. This will immediately lessen the pull-off weights. From the FIRED position, it should take between 7 to 9 lbs to initially move the cocking piece rearwards (And from the cocked position, between 13 to 16 lbs weight
Don't know if this helps at all, but it's the best thing I found in the albums so far. Nothing with the trigger guard attached. No cutaways, either.:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01491-1.jpg
That's useful to me JM as I'm doing it all from memory... What would be good is to have a high speed video (slowed down for slow motion of course) of the action taken from a skeletonised action. But we'll plough on......
If anyone wants to cull all this info and make it into one of those whatever you call them thinggies, then please feel free when it's all finished.
Well, it's sort of a functional cutaway! Maybe this will tie the works together. You'll just have to imagine the trigger guard adjustments until someone else has something more useful.:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01667-1.jpg
JM could you tell us what factory that receiver in your "skeleton" photo is from?
I am interested because I've wondered if the "scoop" taken out of the receiver sidewall (on the sloping part, just to the rear of where a No 4T front pad might finish) is a common late-war thing, or peculiar to one factory (Fazakerley?)
It's probably an unfinished Fazackerly. But it's a mystery in general. It was only shown because of the complete trigger assembly. There's an old thread all about it somewhere in the files.
If it's a distraction I can crop out the excess that's not trigger related!
Thanks JM
The old thread is probably one of mine - I have a BSA FTR No 4 Mk 1/2 with just such a scoop, and believe it to be a late war Fazakerley-made rifle, FTR'ed in the mid 50's into the AXXXX serial range for client states unknown...
7 & 1/3 turns from tight to the click of disengage of treads
Lock washer is there
when drawn down tight first stage does not always return when released.
Snug (just slack taken up ) seems OK and has both stages
With screw like this slot lines up with punch mark on trigger guard
I just read the follow up
That is next
Yep, it's usually about 7+ threads in my limited experience of these rifles. I haven't written the next bit yet! But if the trigger isn't returning after the first stage squeeze, then it should be! This is (?) caused by the sear nose not being rounded and/or the sear face of the cocking piece beinbg rough. It should be polished UP and DOWN and NOT across
If you've got both stages with a crisp and instantaneous 2nd pull, then you're 90% or the way. Hold on for a few days.......... we'll get5 there in the end
Sorry for the delay, but work and all that.......... If you're unhappy about thesecond pull breaking too sharply, you might just radius the lower humped bent VERY slightly to give it a bit more 'slack'
Anyway we're going to look at trigger pull off weights. To test the weight it is important to operate the trigger tester along the SAMP plane that the finger squeezes the trigger - that is along a line from the trigger extending to 3/4" or so behind the cocking piece when in the cocked position.
If the pull off in thefirst pull is between 3 to 4 pounds then it indicates that the sear spring is correct. What you need to do is to increase the angle of the cocking piece against the sear nose - the angle of attack - that will increase the drag and therefore the weight on the sear and therefore trigger as the sear is drawn down the face of the cocking piece.
You might find, for example, that the angle of the cocking piece from the bottom edge is, say 100 degrees (or 80 degrees from the top surface. New ones are pre-ground at 100 degrees.....) then you'll need to bring it down to, say 96 degrees.
Just take it very carefully with a fine oilstone, bit at a time. It won't take much to increase the pull-off weight.
Hope it all works well. But make sure that you've checked the operating weights of the striker spring first