Warning to Australian Bayonet Collectors

This is one of the reasons why I joined Milsurps today. On ebay Australia a purported 1913 Lithgow Pattern 1907 Hook Quillon bayonet sold today for A$3,176.

The link is: Australian P1907 Lithgow Hooked Quillon bayonet. | eBay. If this link doesn't work then the item number is simply 110733004454.

A 1913 dated Australian Lithgow Hook is extremely rare and has some manufacturing differences to the later ones dated 1914 and 1915 and for that matter all later produced bayonets.

Several bayonet colleagues contacted me during the auction to seek my opinion as to its authenticity and express their concerns particularly in that the seller would not respond to emails or provide addional details and photos. I finally did get a response from the seller when I made an accusation regarding it being a fake saying that they would not accept a bid from me - yeah, as if !!

Ebay did nothing despite several independant complaints/reports - nothing unusual here !!

In my younger years I was caught with the odd fake and I only hope that this sale is not the start of more of these dubious bayonets. Would be interested to hear from anyone regarding general comments and in particular ways to get the message out there.

I woudl be very interested in leanring more as to the differences between th e13 and later blades. It has been a while since i did an in depth look at the 1907 - its been nearly 10 years since i did my CD - and would like to hear how to tell. i woudl have hoped befrore someone spent that much money they woudl have had more info than the scant bit on the selelrs page.

Saved auction contents here for posterity and future research by members .. ;)

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Australian P1907 Lithgow Hooked Quillon bayonet. | eBay

Member id: adeedavee_123
Item specifics - Antiquities
Original/Reproduction: Original
Era: 1910s
Originating Region: Australia
Authenticity: Original
Campaign: World War I

For sale is an Extremely Rare Australian P1907 Hooked Quillon bayonet with scabbard. Made at the Lithgow armoury in 1913 the first year of it's operation.

It is marked 2nd MD 24648 on the quillon, 2 A's in a star, X bend mark and L in a shield on the right ricasso and 1907 in a shield, Lithgow and 1913 on the left.

The bayonet is in good condition as is the scabbard which is leather, stitched on both sides and also marked Lithgow.

Attachment 26290Attachment 26291

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Regards,
Doug

In resonse to Old-Smithy's interest in learning more I thought I had better upload some photos from my collection. To my horror I found that I made a mistake in my original posting.

Both the 1913 and 1914 Lithgow hook quillon bayonets have what I describe as a square fuller finish at the ricasso. In 1915 this changed to an oval or circular finish. In the attached photos from my collection the first is the 1913, the second is the 1915 and the third shows all and they are from left to right: 1915, 1914,1913. Whilst the bayonet in question on ebay is diffinitely not 1913 it could be a badly struck 1915, however, the poor photos, odd shape quillon and lack of detail offerred by the seller says otherwise. Cavet Emptor

Attachment 26296 Attachment 26295 Attachment 26297

i knew of th esquare fullers, and i also beleive the hook on the earlier ones is differetn or is it that the hooks on all Auastralian ones is slightly squarer then the UK ones. Mine is a 14 model,

to me that hook on the bayonet appears to be deeper than the on e on your lithgow bayonets. Call me crazy if yo like but me thinks that the fish in denmark are getting a bit smelly!!!.
Regards
Fergs

What's the feeling about this one an EFD from NZ...

Enfield 1907 smle .303 bayonet with quillion | eBay

Thought the clearance / oil hole happened when the quillon was removed?

The finish on the quillon is too different to that on the pommel or it could just be the photo.

But what do I know? Know enough to raise the question here amongst those who do.

Thanks in advance.

In looking at the NZ example my first thoughts are that you are correct in that hook quillons do not have oil clearing holes. I checked the eight British ones in my collection and none of those have the clearing holes. It is possible that the clearing hole was added later, however, if this was the case whilst back in the factory/armoury the quillon would/should have been removed. I also see an inspection date of 1931 which would explain the clearing hole but the question remains; why wasn't the quillon removed?

I still owe Old Smithy a response regarding the actual physical differences in hook construction but it takes time for physical measurement which I seem to have precious little of at the moment. The hook on the NZ example does seem at first to be of a slightly different shape but this could be an optical illusion.

The bluing though is inconsistent. The blueing to the pommel and crossguard does not match that of the screw bolts. In fact the screw bolts are devoid of the normal machining marks and bluing. The bluing on the ricasso area blends into the fullers (on both sides). In all of my examples the bluing is a defined line that finishes before the fuller starts. I have seen this type of bluing previously on Russian reproductions.

Nice pick up Smelly Sam ...

Just a quick note to advise that the winning bidder of the Australian 1913 Hook Quillon has agreed to have the ebay auction cancelled. The realised price of A$3176.00 is now null and void. This is all thanks to Milsurps as the winner Googled 1913 Australian Hook Quillon and was directed to this very posting and started asking questions - love it !! To all ebay buyers - Do your homework before you jump in not after.

To Carl - Old Smithy; hopefully will answer your query in regard to British and Australian Hook quillons this weekend. :)

That's good stuff. Who knows if it was deliberate or not but it has saved someone buying a dud. We done for initiating the thread!

should have looked before he bought not after lol

Like Smith3006 I've also just joined Milsurps in part because of what seems to be going on out there with hookie 1907s.
In my case it was the one currently on sale here in New Zealand that particularly got my spider senses tingling. And it was the quality and angle of the photos of the alleged Lithgow one that made me suspicious for starters.
Only about 6 months back it seems to me that there were British made hookies without clearance holes going for around $500 - 600 tops. But in the last few months these have been going for 4 figure sums.
At the recent NZ Antique Arms auction in Wellington I saw two Brit made ones go for $900 and $950 respectively. I know we're getting closer to 2014 and so interest in anything to do with the 14-18 is going to increase but still?

Keep up the good work guys.

In reply to Old Smithy's question of August 29 in regard to the square look of Australian Hook quillons I can advise that the Australians are both squarer and thicker.

I have been able to measure those still in my collection and they consist of the makers Enfield, Sanderson, Wilkinson, Chapman and Mole. In regard to the actual pattern all of the British and Australians are nearly identical. Measurements from the edge of blade (top - closest to mussle ring) to bottom of the hook are:
British between 58.0 and 58.3mm
Australian between 60.0 and 60.1mm

For the measurement from the back of the crossguard just below the hilt to the hook end are:
Briitish between 35.7 and 37.2mm
Australian between 38.8 and 39.1mm

All British edges are rounded and in particular my Wilkinson the rounding is quite pronounced. On the other hand the Lithgows (see photos previously) are quite square with minor rounding to the bottom edges only. However, until this exercise I had not been aware that at the bottom of the hook curve the thickness of the hook is greater which gives the Lithgows that chunky look. Measurements are:
British between 5.5 x 5.3mm and 5.8mm x 5.5mm
Australian between 6.7 x 5.9mm and 6.7 x 6.2mm
Regards

Welcome Gunner59, sorry I didn't see your post whilst I was composing my last one.

I guess you are quoting NZ$. Unfortunately they don't make these anymore and with more and more collectors aided by the internet the old supply and demand comes into play forcing prices up. You just have to work out a value in your mind but need to watch quality as it is no good paying big dollars for a worn out or questionable piece.
Cheers

thanks smith 3006, i shall have to dig mine out and see if it has simialr dimensions, I knew it was heavier but never checked, and it coudl have been the same com,mon knowledge as he bigger celaning holes on Vickers which is actually due to chamfering the hole nt making it bigger.

Looks as though this has been sold for $1,026 US! Nowhere near as high as the Lithgow but still!

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Originally Posted by smith3006

In looking at the NZ example my first thoughts are that you are correct in that hook quillons do not have oil clearing holes. I checked the eight British ones in my collection and none of those have the clearing holes. It is possible that the clearing hole was added later, however, if this was the case whilst back in the factory/armoury the quillon would/should have been removed. I also see an inspection date of 1931 which would explain the clearing hole but the question remains; why wasn't the quillon removed?

I still owe Old Smithy a response regarding the actual physical differences in hook construction but it takes time for physical measurement which I seem to have precious little of at the moment. The hook on the NZ example does seem at first to be of a slightly different shape but this could be an optical illusion.

The bluing though is inconsistent. The blueing to the pommel and crossguard does not match that of the screw bolts. In fact the screw bolts are devoid of the normal machining marks and bluing. The bluing on the ricasso area blends into the fullers (on both sides). In all of my examples the bluing is a defined line that finishes before the fuller starts. I have seen this type of bluing previously on Russian reproductions.

Nice pick up Smelly Sam ...

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Had another look at the quillon on the NZ ebay example and it looks more like an Australian Lithgow than a British one. Definitely another reason why this one is not the real deal.

1914 dated and in excellent condition!

http://www.honeyholemilitaria.com

Whilst visiting militaria fairs in the UK. I noticed "replica" Hooked Quillion 1907 bayonets have come on to the market. They sell for about £65.00.
Sadly I do not own a hooked quillion 1907 yet. the British made versions that I have seen on sale sell for about£400+ and are usually in poor condition. In my view not worth the money. I bought a German Grave Digger knife from WW1 for £55.00. Not knowing it was a modern replica. A painfull lesson to learn! The real value is about £15.00. A good check to make is to look for Chinese snap fastenings on the scabbards etc. ( The Germans are not known to have had bayonet factories in China during WW1 &2)!

Thank you for the above posts and comments. It's dispicable when collectors get ripped off. Kind regards, Lester

It appears that the year 1914 for Australian Lithgow Hook Quillon bayonets is the transition from square fullers to oval fullers. In my previous posting I showed a photo of my 1914 with square fullers. I have attached a photo from a fellow collector of his 1914 Lithgow with oval fullers. There is no doubt that this is a genuine 1914 Lithgow Hook Quillon bayonet. Sorry about the quality of photos but this is due to the lack of cotton gloves and time available and consequently I could not take it off of the wall.

I’m looking at a supposed 1915 Lithgow with hooked quillon but the date of 1915 as well as the shield & Lithgow all stamped upside down from what I’m generally seeing elsewhere. Is this a red flag as it seems to me or is not of concern to those in the know? It also has a stamp of 10/21 which I’m unsure what that indicates. I’m a decades long collector of American stuff that’s now learning on British & Commonwealth & Imperial nations’ militaria. Thank ya.

Photos of both sides of the ricasso would help