OT but still Commonwealth

I have just purchased a Vickers-Armstrong Pedersen rifle and need to find one or more of the 10 round En block clips. There were over 200 of these made in england prior to WW2 and I am hoping someone out there can help me out.

Here are a couple of pics, I will do a photo essay as I get time.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...84660402-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01680-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01702-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01676-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01671-1.jpg

If you have any info about a clip for this monster, please let me know.

I know nothing about that nice rifle but I do not know if I would want that folding bolt cycling in front of my face.

:D If you sent it to me for a couple of years, I can see what there is for clips hereabouts...

I may know someone with clips. He has or had some a while back and ammo still in boxes. The waxed 7mm fairly tapered bodied rounds, yes? Might take a little time to get in touch with him. AFAIK, he doesn't participate on internet forums.

It appears that the collector mentioned above only has 2 clips, and is quite reluctant to part with them, as he also has a rifle. (Which I had forgotten!) May have photos coming to taunt you, but that's it for now.

I might be able to borrow one to see how insanely expensive it would be to tool up and make a few.

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photos, maybe ;

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=b6405...8%211488&sff=1#

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...JPGpsid1-1.jpg

Just a thought, would it be possible to modify M1 Garand clips to fit and function?

I'll bet they're narrower than M1 clips...

Mr. Moore, I would be very afraid to make anything based of one stamped part. With only maybe a dozen rifles out in the wild and not much ammo Im not sure what the market would be.

Paul, Good question, I will investigate. The Vickers clip is 10 rounds.

Definitely not a commercially viable project, but it all depends on how bad someone wants one. Just ask the warbird restorers. Madness! But interesting.

Interesting, never heard of them!

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Originally Posted by Gibbs505

Interesting, never heard of them!

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What, Pedersen rifles or warbird restorers? You would find incredible how little original equipment is part of some flying aircraft. We were doing brand new factory interchangible fuselages for P40s. 100% new. Including engine mount forgings. New stringer extrusions. Canopy rail extrusions. Tail gear attach brackets. Castings, everything!

Had started on brand new wings, but the workload bacame too much- this wasn't my primary job, and I had aging parents.

How small is that market?!!!

The clips for the Vickers Pederson rifles are extremely rare here in the UK despite quite large amounts of ammunition being made by both Kynoch and Greenwood & Batley, including Proof rounds.

Picture shows British made rounds for the Vickers by both manufacturers. Note the round on the right is a Proof with the bullet seated further out to accommodate the additional charge. Case head has purple stripe.

Regards
TonyE

Pedersen Rifles. I have heard of the pedersen converson of the 03 but not this little item!

Mr Moore,
New fuse for P40's??? Very cool, I am a hugh Warbird fan. The University of WI. Madison had a P-51B hanging in the Mechanical engineering building COMPLETE! A year before I went to school there (1981) they got a new Dean. He came in looked around and said "this is all in the past, We need to BE the future... get rid of it!" so they pulled it down, took it apart and stuck it in an ally behind the building. It leaned against the wall with the wing behind it and the horizontal stabs propped up next to it... waiting for the trash service to haul it as scrap! it was not rescued, it was cut and crushed!!! I guy I worked with at the school had a picture of it in the ally, I almost cried!

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Originally Posted by m4carbine

... The University of WI. Madison had a P-51B hanging in the Mechanical engineering building COMPLETE! A year before I went to school there (1981) they got a new Dean. He came in looked around and said "this is all in the past, We need to BE the future... get rid of it!" ...

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The new Dean must have been the only twit on the planet to have not heard the old adage that we learn from the past.

Georgia Institute of Technology had a Bf 109 and a FW190. I met the fellow who bought the 190, he sold it for ten times what he paid , but that figure is about 1/20 of peak valuation!51s litter the countryside in comparision, but folk like 'em.

Yah, the madman I was helping quit his car painting job to restore P40's. No money, but personality, enthusiasm, and a certain ruthlessness made him probably the best and most accurate reconstructor for Tomahawks, Kittyhawks, and US P40s out there. We even back engineered the main landing gear attach forgings. The engine mount forging dies were constructed so that they would work with everything from P36s on througth the late models. It's also where I learned not to trust factory drawings.

The Pedersen was the 'other' rifle the M1 really competed against.

.276, greased IIRC to feed correctly as nobody had figured out fluted chambers yet.

When MacArthur (right or wrong) ordered it changed to .30-06, that toggle system (designed for the .276) apparently couldn't be changed so quick (major redesign) and the M1 could be quickly changed.

Both the Pedersen and M1 were tested in England. I've seen many pics, but never seen a Pedersen rifle "in the wild". Assumed the MOD had all of them, or they had been destroyed.

That is a serious piece of history you have there.

The M1 clip conversion to the Pedersen may be a variation on this bit of prototyping I did to fab up a 10 round Garand during the late "ban" years.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff010-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff011-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff012-1.jpg

A bit of skilled TIG welding (in this case I was just going to weld the sides and leave the back alone to preserve the "springiness") and it might just function- after a whole lot of trial and error work!

Was/is that jig just a symmetrical cutting jig JM?

A rifle that oozes some of Pedersen's finest design work helped by the exceptional VA engineering. He would have driven them nuts during production.

The same man that beat Colt's patents with the Rem Model 51, the most ergonomic of handguns, me thinks, that today shoots as good as it feels and not to forget the slide action centre fire rifle family, design elements of which still appear in today's Remingtons' products.

There are clips are out there, we just need to help m4carbine find them.

Guns America has / had a listing (Item Number: 999909747) for around US$15k.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Was/is that jig just a symmetrical cutting jig JM?

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It locates on the inside of feed lips of the clips. Angle of the cut was adjusted by shifting the fixture in the Kurt vise. Needed to be able to compensate for any shrinkage during welding.

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Originally Posted by smelly sam

The same man that beat Colt's patents with the Rem Model 51, the most ergonomic of handguns, me thinks, that today shoots as good as it feels

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One of my favorites! Of the pocket pistols, the best of it's era. Except for it's size, it would be a fantastic design now. Low recoil, excellent ergonomics. But not for dummies as far as field stripping goes.

Considering the off-the-charts rarity of the piece, one has to consider having a machine shop make some clips up from billet, assuming that accurate dimensional drawings can be sourced that is.

Rather, make the forming dies from billet! Annealed spring steel sheet for the clip material. Getting a near perfect blank profile is the trickiest bit. But it's far easier than in the old days as they can be drawn up in CAD and then wire EDM'd. If the prototype is off a bit, then a simple computer adjustment and you're back in business. No new punch and die set required! Forming dies can be simplified if you are willing to do some hand work. I don't have a forming press any more, (a 200 ton unit with a 24" dia. ram), but in a pinch, the old slow methods would work. Again, the aircraft restoration crowd does this stuff all the time, and with NO serious equipment.

Reading of your time in the aricraft restoration industry JM makes me wonder if that might be the best place for any engineering apprentice to start his trade. It just covers the WHOLE wide strata. 5 years as an apprentice there must be the most complete craft apprenticeship there is.

Just as a matter of interest JM. While it's simple to identify, say an original 30's or 40's alloy. How do you go about replacing it when the original material is just not available........... If the plane just had to look good and not fly, it's simple. But if it's got to fly, you just can't go to the next or closest spec of material - or can you?

My guess would be find the strongest material modern science can come up with and still passes all the specs in terms of "bendability" brittleness and the like ... Then have at it. As long as the "replacement" is stronger than the original in every way there should be no trouble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Reading of your time in the aricraft restoration industry JM makes me wonder if that might be the best place for any engineering apprentice to start his trade. It just covers the WHOLE wide strata. 5 years as an apprentice there must be the most complete craft apprenticeship there is.

Just as a matter of interest JM. While it's simple to identify, say an original 30's or 40's alloy. How do you go about replacing it when the original material is just not available........... If the plane just had to look good and not fly, it's simple. But if it's got to fly, you just can't go to the next or closest spec of material - or can you?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Just as a matter of interest JM. While it's simple to identify, say an original 30's or 40's alloy. How do you go about replacing it when the original material is just not available........... If the plane just had to look good and not fly, it's simple. But if it's got to fly, you just can't go to the next or closest spec of material - or can you?

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Most warbirds use nothing more fancy than clad 2024-T3 sheet metal. Forgings as well (minus the cladding). I upgraded tracer milled forging copies to 7075 or 7050, and shot peened 'em as well. (The Japanese were the first to use 7000 series aluminum starting w/ the Zero-sen, BTW. SDCH designation, IIRC. )

As far as apprenticing, England and the commonweath countries had much better restorers than the pirates over here, in general. I DID learn way more than all the years of schooling as far as practical engineering. And machine trade techniques of "the ancients", too. But expensive! All the time getting tooling.

Now I have a 14 foot metal planer slowly rusting away in an open lot . Anybody need one? I'll give to anyone that won't melt it down.