The infamous 'CIA' Canadian 8mm round.

Picked up a huge amount of surplus 8mm over the weekend, and as I was checking out the headstamps, I noticed they were all a bit, well, odd. All rounds are marked '7.92 MM 44'. Soo, as I am wont to do in these cases, I researched it. Turns out that these are Canadian, Boxer primed, and non corrosive (gotta love that) Apparently they were made for use in the British BESA tank gun. And APPARENTLY they were also made for the CIA intended for use in the Bay of Pigs operation. Now, I've heard some whoppers in my time, but this beats 'em all. The 44 date was supposedly put there to throw the Cubans off regarding the time and place of origin. Anyone else heard this story? I mean, this beats the pants off the old 'This Luger was taken off a dead high ranking SS officer' yarn any day of the week. Anyway, if nothing else, it's supposed to be pretty collectable. It sure as heck shoots good. And there's lots more where this came from. Might just have to go back for the rest!

I'd take the latter part of the story with a serious grain of salt ...

True story on the "MM" rounds, but they were actually produced in the mid-1950s, not for the BOP. Same thing also exist in 9mmP.

If Warren would please read this and respond, he will have the correct answer. He's been dealing with this sort of ammo for sure for years.

I have a couple of these rounds floating around in my collection- They were mixed in with some 30.06 I picked up and the I didn't notice til I had gotten home with it. I had always been told it was contracted out by some company for the British 8mm coax guns found on various tanks. (Which I had always found strange since England seemed quite happy with .303 for just about everything...) I haven't shot any of mine in the hopes that one day it will be worth a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Anzac15

Picked up a huge amount of surplus 8mm over the weekend, and as I was checking out the headstamps, I noticed they were all a bit, well, odd. All rounds are marked '7.92 MM 44'. Soo, as I am wont to do in these cases, I researched it. Turns out that these are Canadian, Boxer primed, and non corrosive (gotta love that) Apparently they were made for use in the British BESA tank gun. And APPARENTLY they were also made for the CIA intended for use in the Bay of Pigs operation. Now, I've heard some whoppers in my time, but this beats 'em all. The 44 date was supposedly put there to throw the Cubans off regarding the time and place of origin. Anyone else heard this story? I mean, this beats the pants off the old 'This Luger was taken off a dead high ranking SS officer' yarn any day of the week. Anyway, if nothing else, it's supposed to be pretty collectable. It sure as heck shoots good. And there's lots more where this came from. Might just have to go back for the rest!

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I have & shoot an 8mm. Were can I get some of this ammo? Thanks.

Sounds like a bunch of B.S. to me! The Canadians loaded 8mm for the Chinese Nationalists durring WW 2 for use in the K98k Mausers they bought from Germany in the late 30s AND MK I Bren guns - in 8mm - built for them by Canada durring the war.
There are several different dates found on this ammo - 42, 43. 44 & 45, if I remember right. I know I've got more than 1 year in my collection.
Sarge

Sorry you feel that way Sarge, but it is true. It has long been a point of discussion and research in cartridge collector circles.

Sarge is closer to correct than you think Jonny. We didn't load anything for the CIA. The chinese nationals, yes.

The clandestine 8mm and 9mm were products of Canada which were supplied to the US Gov't.

I understand that the "9 MM 4x" headstamped ammo was the standard US Gov't issued 9mm until the adoption of the Beretta M9 pistol.

International Ammunition Association {iaaforum.org} - View topic - Canadian 7.9 addendum

International Ammunition Association {iaaforum.org} - View topic - Canadian 7.92MM and 9MM Hdstmps.

International Ammunition Association {iaaforum.org} - View topic - 7.92x57 refresher

"Sarge is closer to correct than you think Jonny. We didn't load anything for the CIA. The chinese nationals, yes."

Jim, think about your statement. If all that ammo was made during WWII and sent to China, the boxes would be marked as such, the ammo would be found in Asia (China, Korea, or Vietnam). In addition, it would be made according to the manufacturing processes of the 1940s. Unfortunately for your disbelief, the boxes are totally unmarked, they are only found as US surplus, and they are made according to Canadian 1950s manufacturing technology. If for the post-1949 Chinese Nationalists on Taiwan, the dates would be post 1949.

Here's some pics..this is a small portion, the box is full as well. Soooo......clandestine or not? Makes a neat story anyway!

I haven't shot any of the 8mm, but the 9x19 is great shooting ammo.

Johnny, when we disposed of our .30 cal AP ammo it ALL went into the US and then we saw it. It wasn't released anywhere else. Then we could purchase it back here. It was all belted for 1919's and in cans. Yes, it was all marked. The point of the story is we don't sell our stuff to ourselves. We have to sell it somewhere first and then buy it back. Or we destroy it. The 8mm could have been sitting anywhere for the duration. When we made 7.62 and .556 for US consumption during the Vietnam war it was for continental US use only. Therefore marked. If this was for use overseas in China I could see why it wouldn't be marked. And by Chinese national, I mean anyone living in China at any time. I just wouldn't buy into a story like spooks and robbers. And yes, the examples we had here years ago was exellent ammo.

No problem, you don't have to buy into anything. This "story" has been studied and researched by some of the best people in the cartridge world. You're free to believe anything you want.....and be wrong. Read the info on the IAA postings and make an attempt to refute any bit of it. Good luck.

What's the IAA? I'd be interested in checking that out. I'd like to point out at this time that I can't say I believe or disbelieve the claims regarding this ammo. I have heard some pretty convincing evidence from both sides of the argument. If there's some solid evidence backing this up, I sure would like to see it.

The IAA is the International Ammunition Association. Read the links above to the relevant postings on the subject. There have been others, but they're a good start. The IAA homepage is International Ammunition Association

Thanks!

I have always heard that the Bay of Pigs ammo was unmarked. It was 8mm as the bulk of the weapons were 8mm. My boss in Viet Nam was captured at the Bay of Pigs and our team medic was in the aborted 2nd wave at the Bay of Pigs. His landing boat made it ashore and picked up people from the 1st wave, they then returned to the US Navy ship. Very lucky that he wasn't captured.

Many of the weapons used were US military, in .30-06. There are clandestine cartridges in that caliber with AN, BN, and CN dated headstamps.

Here is a picture of a full box of MM ammo and the headstamp. It was made at the montreal munitions plant during WW2 for the Brit BESA mg. It has nothing to do with the CIA! It is possible that some went to China during the war, but documentation woAttachment 26594Attachment 26595uld be needed.