M14 issued as SA instead of Selective?

I just watched the training film located at U.S. RIFLE, CALIBER 7.62MM, M14 (U.S. Training Film) and it was very informative.

One thing it seemed to be stating towards the end of the film was that the round style selective fire knob was acutally not a selective knob, but a lockout of the selective fire feature and rifles setup with the round knob were only able to be used in SA mode.

If I understand the film correctly, it was only issued as selective fire to certain squad members - I assume they must have been designated support fire teams?

Did I understand this correctly? Was the majority of the M14s in use by squads setup as SA instead of selective fire?

That was my impression also. They only issued the selector to certain individuals.

when I was in and the M-14 was still issued to us, (6/65 to 11/67... then we got the mattey mattel M-16 after Nov 67 in my armored cav squadron !) I seem to recall one man per squad was issued the M-14 E-2. This had the wood stock, with the pistol grip (wood) and a front fold down grip on the forearm which had a sling attachment. If you slung up really tight, and you REALLY concentrated on hitting a full sized torso type target at 100 yards, you MIGHT get TWO rounds on target before it climbed to high. This was in OFFHAND (standing) with the sling wrapped tight. Needless to say, the E-2 was "select fire" you could turn it to full auto or semi auto.
It also did NOT have the buttplate compartment as did the regular M-14 (and M1 Garands) did.
One of our men in that 12 man squad had the M-60 (7.62 NATO) machine gun.
We were organized where we had 3 M48A3 tanks and 7 M113 APC's per platoon.
Example: A-10 was plt leaders track (2nd or 1st Lt Plt Leader), A-11 and A-12 were "recon" tracks, A-13 and A-14 were Infantry tracks (and one of these had a 90 mm recoiless on it as well), A-15 was the Plt Sgt's Tank. A-16 and A-17 were tanks,
A-18 was and infantry track, A-19 was a mortar track. Each APC had a minimum of One M-2 FIFTY caliber on the commanders cupola (which was TOE, that is authorized equip). There may have been one or two more 50's or one or two M-60's mounted on the top sides behind the commanders cupola.
The tanks had the Ma Duece in front of the TC's cupola (mounted externally...NOT internally as on the M-60 TANKS). A 90 MM main gun with HEAT (high explosive anti tank), HE (High Explosive used on troops or bunkers), HEP (high explosive plastic (used on enemy armor, or bunkers), APDS (armor piercing discarding sabot..command was SABOT pronounced as SayBo sometimes), WP (white phosphurous..this would start the foilage on fire as well as troops), Cannister (this was like a giant shotgun shell, had about 1500 I think roughly .38 caliber slugs -flat points in it use for anti-troops), and BeeHive (had 6 or 8000 steel darts that were like a finishing nail with fins on them).
There was also a "co-axially" mounted M-73 machine gun (7.62 NATO) mounted in the turret co-axially with the main gun. It had a 7000 round banana box and ONE BELT of ammo that was 7000 rounds long. Problem was, the rounds would always work backwards or forwards in the links from vibrations of operating the tank and you'd have a "stopppage". The gun was crammed in on the left side between the main gun and the turret so you had very little room to clear it. It was usually fired until it stopped and then you'd use other stuff.
The above was TOE (authorized). Sometimes you'd have an additional 50 or Coax mounted in front of the loaders hatch. When a downed tank or apc was hit and turned into ordinance it was typical that the "armaments" (read 50's and 7.62's) would be declared a combat loss and mounted on other vehicles to increase our firepower.
Each tank had a 4 man crew but we usually operated with 3 men, Driver, Loader/Gunner became one, and Tank Commander. Each Plt was supposed to have 3 twelve men squads that I recall divided up among the APC's. There were 3 line platoons, and one HQ plt that had the cooks, mechanics, VTR's and etc in it.
A little off topic but might be of interest to some of you.
A Trp, 3rd Sqdn, 4th Cav, 25th Inf Div. Nov 67 to Aug 24, 68!!
Bob

I did 35 years in the Canadian army-infantry and I always like to hear how the other guys do theirs. And as for the M14's that was about what we thought...about as easy to keep on target on auto as the FN C1's. C2's also.

I carried a TRW in the First Southest-Asian Wargames and it was SA-only. No Happy-switch. I traded a guy DEROSing the M16 I was issued for it. I just traded another new guy when I DEROSed and turned the 16 in as a Battlefield pickup because mine was destroyed. I saw quite a few 14s over there but none with a Selector-switch.

My understanding is that FA M14's were only issued as per the CO's direct orders and while all M14's had the of being turned into FA, actually adding the "happy switch" could only be done by qualified armorers. Also there are mention in period manuals that all "National Match" M14's were semi-auto only. I suspect that the number of M14's which ever had the switch added was very small overall. If you take a look at period pictures, almost all of them have the round knob instead of the selector.

M14s issued to us during the Cuban Crisis were all semi auto only. We tried to get the selector switches but none were available. NM M14s had the switch axle welded on the inside so it could not be turned even if the cap was removed.

My buddy Jerry Crisman was in VN in 1966 1968 and he told me his M14 was select fire. He was then issued an "AR15" which were all very quickly taken back and then were issued M16s.

Weren't the first M16's marked AR15 Bill?

As far as I know they were. I know Jerry called the first one he got an AR15 and they only had them a couple of days and were reissued their M14s. He said within a week or so they got what he called M16s.

I also know Jerry didn't have any love for either the AR or M16. I did love his M14 though. :D He told me two well placed M14 rounds would bring down a water buffalo where is took a 20 round magazine with the M16 ;)

The squad leader was supposed to have selector switches and a wrench to install them on his squads rifles should the need arise.
I never saw an M14 with a selector switch, but I was in an aviation unit when I turned in my Garand and got an M14. I was Not impressed!!!
The M14 on full auto is a worthless piece of Shi--!!! IF you are lucky, and aim low to the left you might get 2 rds on a siloutte, the rest of a 3 or 5 rd burst will be high to the right OFF the target! I have only known a couple of guys who could hold an M14 on target for more than 2 rds. I'm Not one of them and I shoot full autos on a regular basis.
I now own 2 M14 rifles/selector switches. I hardly ever shoot them, I just have them. I will take one to the range for someone who thinks they are just great, to shoot. I Never put but 2 rds in the mag and they usual hit the target with only the first shot.
Someone commented about the FN/FAL, IF I read his post right he thinks the FN is like the M14. I have to seriously disagree!!!
I have an FN/FAL with a run fast switch, it is one of my most favorite weapons to shoot. On full auto I can consistantly put 4 of a 5 rd burst on the target. I almost always get a flyer on #5. Subsequently I normaly shoot 3 rd bursts - ALL in the chest at 150 - 200 yds.
Sarge

Part of our qualification was the full auto mode with the FN C2 in the Canadian Army. Most of the people couldn't get them to put more than the cursory two rounds on the target. The C1 was set on single the same as the M14 because of ammo wastage. The only ones exempt that rule were the Navy C2s which were a rifle with the full auto selector and plunger and a big C2 carved in the stock. They climbed more than just a bit. It will depend which countries' FN you have if you can control it. I didn't fire mine a couple of times, I carried it for 15 years. I just love to shoot both C1 and M14 and still prefer BOTH weapons on singles. They're both top rate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by musketshooter

M

....( Snip for Brevity )....
NM M14s had the switch axle welded on the inside so it could not be turned even if the cap was removed.

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That's the way I remember it as well.
The first timed that I was issued an NM M14 , I put it in the car and drove to my Pa Dutch Grandmother's farmhouse and leaned it in the corner of kitchen by the back door.

That part's interesting. I had never heard that before.

That happened sometime in the middle/late 1960's . Some quick factoids:
For years , The National Rifle and Pistol Matches ( USA ) at Camp Perry ( Ottawa County )Ohio were very heavily supported by the US Dept. of Defense. Significant numbers of active duty military supported the matches , including things like running the mess hall , pulling targets , coaching and instructing at the Small Arms Firing Schools ( SAFS )and the Junior and Tyro School.

The SAFS were completely Service run although some civilians ( example : Bill Jordan ) were sometimes guest speakers. SAFS was designed to help train civilians for various legit defense roles from soldier to rifle /pistol team coach.

All Service ammo and guns were issued free of charge . Gun storage was a competator/student responsibility.

Big boy rules , basically a list of don't-do-anything-dumbs and don't lose the gun.

Hope that helps to clarify things.

ETA:
Pa Dutch is short for Pennsyvania Dutch , an immigrant ethnic/time period group ( German speaking )that entered Pennsyvania circa 1650 through about 1820 or so. At least in the US during that era , almost all immigrants from northwesten and central Europe were likely to be considered Dutch by English speaking people.

We used to be much the same here in Canada. The soldier was issued his rifle and he was responsible for it. When he traveled(usually by train) he carried it broken down in his kitbag. He kept it secured in his locker in the quarters. About the time of the FLQ in Quebec(1970) that changed.
The other thing I find interesting is the selector shaft lock on the M14's was welded before issue. I hadn't heard that and I talked to plenty of old USMC that were issued them.

Kind of an apples & oranges thing .
The US Marine teams were full time or reserve military . The M14(s?) that I signed for at Camp Perry were modified so as to be reasonable & prudent for issue to civilians . One issue in the US is that any gun that that fires full auto or can be easily converted to full auto is by Federal law a " Machine Gun " . To legal buy/own a "Machine Gun " at that time & place the citizen had to get fingerprinted , pay $200 , jump through some other hoops and wait a long time. Also , some law enforcement people might become very concerned if they saw a " machine gun " , some twenty round mag's ( look a little like BAR mag's ) & an ammo can marked for " sniper " ammo ( Lake City National Match ) in the back seat of an 18 year old kid's car. Welding up the selector was a simple solution to a complex problem .

As late as 1992 I drew an NM M14 (an H&R one) from the DCM at Perry, and drove out the gate with it, and for all they knew, out of their lives. You got a couple of magazines in long-term packaging, and a M1907-type sling (made of rather soft leather). The selector lock was welded in place.

We trained on M14's. Mine had the go faster switch. Many others were SA. Before we deployed, they were turned in and we were issued M16's.

not to change the subject,does any one know of manufacture dates like with the m1 garand,but with m14's . have been looking for a sticky on any sights i can find and havnt found any.

There is a lot,, well off base information in this post. The only blocking caps ever welded were on the NM rifles and they were soldered not welded. I still see them now and again at our local range at Ft. Ord. About 1/3 of the rifles in my company had the selector lever installed. We operated around DakTo and Kontum during what we called the mountian battles that raged from October 1967 and tapered off late May 1968 and if you wanted it I put it on for you as I had boxes of them and there was no wrench but a pin punch did the job. Last, with a little practice you could learn to keep a short burst on,,, well the target we will call it today to remain PC and the area was thick with targets. It was called training back then followed by some OJT.

Pura Vida
...MJ...
Not my pictures I do not own an M14 receiver so don't get your panties in a twist.:yikes:
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