"AL" additional serial/inventory number on No. 4 Enfield - got one?

Just acquired a 1941 Long Branch No. 4 Mk 1 (details submitted for the database) and want to try get some discussion going on the odd fact about the rifle, which is that it has, stamped into the left side of the butt socket, just below the Long Branch serial number, "AL 6505" (see photo)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0582-1.jpg

There have been some occasional references on different boards about these markings, but I haven't seen a clear explanation of where/why they were added.

I'd like to hear from others with similarly double-marked No. 4s. Any common denominators which might point to what led to the stamping. I'm just curious. The other rifles I've heard about were also Long Branch. Only Long Branch rifles get this treatment?

This rifle is in Canada.

Indian State Forces as opposed to the main Indian Army.

Also seen on post war Thompson and Sten guns. Alambrahad springs to mind

I just bought one the other day, marked the same, also a Longbranch, 37L.... . '43. Pretty ordinary condition, but sound. It had some other mark on the receiver wall that I've not seen before, someone mentioned the possibility of it being Isreali. Does yours have any other stamps near the writing on the receiver side wall?

The Thompson Collectors in the US uncovered all of these origins. GF was another for Gujerat Forces

Century Arms in Canada (MANY years ago) brought in a shipment of "AL" marked No.4's and they were from Israel. Also included was a pile of Mk. VI Webley's in .455 also marked with a second AL number. Where they originated is anyone's guess.

The Israeli ones all seem to have a Star of David. Were they so marked Warren?

I've seen this one for sale in the UK and wondered what this one might mean too...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Handler-1.jpg

I have a funny feeling that it's the same too. Ironically, I have seen a British Army No4 with it too, partially linished off but still clearly visible. But it probably/presumably came back with Briitish Forces from India in '46/47 when they were winding up the Princely State Forces.

As I said, the Thompson chaps in the US encounter this mark on ex Lend Lease Thompson guns and it's turned up on Sten Guns too.

Further to Warrens comment, does anyone have these or similar initials together with the Star of David

Interestingly enough none of the No.4's or the "Wobblies" had the star of David (or the Magen David) marking. I still have one or two of the AL prefixes and might also have an Israeli Mk.VI Wobblie and will look shortly. I have run into a number of items that were from Israel not marked with the Magen David and I will check with a contact and see when it was applied and under what circumstances. I've been in touch with a contact in Israel in my info quest on the Israeli 32 sniper scopes and the man who designed and made them. His sister is still alive in Tel Aviv and has vivid memories of his telescopic sight escapades.....I hope to have a little monologue written on this shortly.

I'd certainly be interested to see your AL marked rifles Warren, if you've got any pics. I'll confess to a personal interest - my 't' is an AL.

I've seen a few over the years too, though usually on SMLE's. The first one I ever bought (aged 17, so it was a few years ago) was an EFD 1918 Mk3* stamped AL 18299 on the L side of the butt socket.

ATB

P.S. I've seen both AL & AA prefixes to the serials but no other markings such as to suggest Israeli ownership.

Looks like the Thompson Collectors research was correct then....... Ex Indian State Forces.

This is the accepted wisdom of the US BATF too regarding provenance

This was a fast, informative process. Thanks, Peter, for your initial post, and interesting to hear from others about their examples. Aside from the "AL" inventory number, there are no other markings on my No. 4 pictured at the top of this thread to indicate ownership.

Based on the well-used condition of this rifle, it makes perfect sense. I bought it using the logic that "Any 1941 Long Branch, no matter how tired, or where it's been, is a nice thing to have." :lol:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_0590-1.jpg

The thing I can't quite understand re the Indian link is why they have been sold and then found their way into our hands. After all, we still see the pics of the Indian police and army and lo, they're still walking around with No4s and all manner of other obsolete kit. So why sell it when seemingly they are perfectly servicable and as far as they're concerned, usable by the authorities? (btw my AL has no noticable 'Israeli' markings).

Ref Israeli No.4s, all the examples I've seen with the Star of David are marked 7.7mm also

I knew I had seen that large font before. Here is a picture of one I've glommed off the web of 74L4180, and another one I labeled INDIAN OWNERSHIP when I snatched it.
It may be nothing, but it may be something, too.
But do notice the similaries in the "L".

If the 'AL' is an Indian number system, wouldn't there be the Ishapore screw as a tell?

These STATE forces were not the principal Army as such so probably no screw unless they went through the Indian Army system subsequently. That's only my view

If anyone cares to look at the auction thread on the Forum, under Rob Hetheringtons sale etc etc. Look at auction item 529, an ex Indian No4T Mk1/2, you'll see another Indian State Forces mark of GF on the rifle/bracket. Gujerat State Forces. Has that answered the original querie

whether or not the Lee Enfields came from India originally or not , they were imported from Israel into Canada........Along with some Webley Mk. VI revolvers in .455 that were painted black and had an E prefix on the serial number as well as an AL number on some of the backstraps. Also none had an Israel star or Magen David. A great number of Israel arms have no star on them and we attempting to find out when and where it was applied for an article on Israeli arms. Items made in the Israeli workshops prior to Independence did not have the Magen David or star.
There does not appear to be any Indian markings or "Issy screws" in any of the AL marked rifles I have seen, and perhaps someone can supply a picture of one for general interest.

I only say that Warren, not to fall out or muddy waters but while they might have been imported from Israel, the previous research is that these codes indicate that they were all Indian Princely State Forces material. This was researched in the US by the Thompson people and recently, (and I was reluctant to say this earlier but I did imply it in roundabout terms.......) in a case involving a Mk3 Sten Gun used in crime in the US, I had to give a statement to those same BATF regarding some parts of the trail. And the BATF told me that their records (presumably they have deep and detailed access to the mysterious world of weapons.....) they were indeed from India.

To be honest, it's academic where the were imported from as we're talking about where themarks originated

And when the previous research into Thompson guns bearing these marks PLUS the investigation by the BATF say that's where they came from, then guess who's word I'll be taking.......................... Yep, got it in one!