Printable View
ok I tried up on the appreasal board and did not get a response so I will try here I am looking at a 41 winchester it is all origianal except the buttstock, knobs on the rear sight and the gas cylinder he wants 2500 however the barrel is pitted would the pitted barrel be a deal killer? he will not come down on the price
The true collectors seem to value originality more than barrel condition because they aren't going to shoot them anyway. I personally want it shiney and bright so I could shoot it if I wish. Not that poor bores don't shoot, I just don't like them. But I only have two. One collector and one shooter. On the other hand the buttstock rear sight knobs and gas cylinder are going to cost you a LOT. I have a '41 SA and I wouldn't want to replace those parts.
I have some '41 Winchesters, need to have more details, part of the serial, type of cartouche. There were three cartouches used by WRA during 1941, early to mid 1941 rifles had alot of numbered parts too. Big question - is it annealed or not ? some have even had the logo engraved where it had worn down. alot of factors concerning this time period.
the buttstock is a WW11 replacement not WRA and no cartouches. what partys should be numbered
start with part of the serial number, example I have 102xxx or 128xxx
I also have a 41 winn and am wondering what stocks you have on yours ? Mine is a no trap door WB just one boxQuote:
Originally Posted by RCS
I also have some WRA WB no trap stocks (on rifles) too. The rebuild stamp is on a 1.26 mil from 1942 with the production trapdoor. Very few of the WRA WB production had the factory trapdoor
The buttstock and rear sight are two very rare and expensive parts on a '41 Winchester. Since the buttstock and rear sight are not original, and if I read it right, not even correct for a '41, I don't see how it would be worth $2500, especially with a pitted barrel and incorrect gas cylinder. It sounds like an incomplete restoration to me.
Rice, it is so difficult to place value on a rifle we can't see or even have the most rudimentary information on like serial number. If you can provide a few photos and the serial number or as Robert posted a partial serial number these guys will be able to pin it down for you. You've got the experts right here watching this thread. Good luck. :thup:
I talked to the owner today.The rear sight is a short pinion one knob is correct the other is incorrect with a lock bar. the serial dates to novemeber 1941, the barrel is frosted not pitted. he has a WRA numbered gas cylinder that by the book is 2 monthes to early for the receiver date that he will put on the gun. The butstock is a post war open box SA. all other parts are correct for the receiver serial date according to the owner who is very knowlegable on M1s I am going to look at it tonight. If I do buy it I would look for any WW11 cartouched butstock for it. I beleve that any WW11 butstock and the lock bar sight knob could be considered field replacements and i think a gas cylinder to months 2 early for the serial number could be plausable
Rice,
Out of 10 very said to be knowledgeable Garanders maybe and I mean maybe 1 is smart enough on these things. I make this statement from all the years I have had to help people who were ripped off and at first were ready to hang me from a high tree when I told them their Knowledgeable person was full of it. Luckily I am smart enough to have plenty of records to prove these poor examples wrong.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying this guy is one but I am saying I can bet he is not. You have given us no serial range to help, you have talked with no information so far and want our help. None of this can happen unless you help us to see. There are so many fake short pinions out there and even fake knobs now. The bad parts is you made a bad statement,, you said You have a 41 Winchester all orignal and then proceeded to call off most of the rifle as not correct. Is the barrel cringed where a new one was put on? is the pad long of short? Are the inards the correct colors and numbers or angles? Is the correct sight knob open arrow or closed? Is the op rod cut or uncut? I can go on and on and you can purchase this money pit if wanted but we need allot more to help and hope you understan.
Rick B
Rick B. is right. Also sometime around 2003 a friend called from a gunshow in MN, he said he found a Winchester 116849 for sale for around $4500, it even had a faint WB double box cartouche on a no-trap stock, all the parts look correct and he was going to buy it. I told him to hold while I checked my data sheets, I found it, it was a complete restoration from a guy
that also lived in MN but since died. The logo was engraved but the TRADEMARK was too large, the receiver was annealed, the cartouche was fake (lazy R) and than worked over to appear faint. The stock had been restored in the buttplate area. At the time there might have been $2000 worth of good WRA parts. He did not buy it but I am sure someone did !
I am going to look at it tonight I will try to write down some part numbers he is not going to let me strip it down and take pics. Originaly He got it out of an estate sale and put it in his collection and He was not trying to sale it I have been bugging him to sale it to me for over a year. As far as being knowalgable he is the most knowlageble person i know locally. He has been working behind a the gun counter at a local pawn shop for 40 years and he has a huge garand collection including 5 lend leases. So what I am asking is if all of the parts on a 41 garand are correct but the buttstock , the elevation knob and the cylinder would it be worth $2500
This in itself is a sign and not a good one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by rice 123
The point is you don't know that the parts, other than the stock, gas cylinder and elevation knob, are correct or not. The fact that the Pawn Broker / Garand Collector is the "most knowledgable person you know locally" really says nothing to his knowledge or honesty. I have been involved with M1 garands for about 50 years but I would not lay out $ 2500.00 for a rifle like this without the opinion of some KNOWN experts. In fact a few have already commented on this post. But as others have said, you have to give them more to work with. Re-read the reply you got from Rick B. and try and answer some of the questions he posed.
Also, why will he not allow you to take pictures ???
ok I went over tonight and wrote down all of the numbers I could find. Now if I can read my scribbleing serial 1378XX trigger group large pad small hole the numbers in the trigger assembly were C46025WRA, D28290WRA,C46008-1 WRA, one peice milled follower rod, early pattern op rod catch in the white, side beveled follower rod, early patter follower hand filed, unmarked clip latch, winchester sight base, short pinion I do not know if it is SA or WRA, no notch handguard. milled grooved lower band, winchester upper band, bolt D2827-1 WRA, round firing pin hole in the bottom, Hammer spring housing white, plunger white,disconnector white uncut D35382 WRA op rod, circular mchined single slot lock screw, d35449-wra gas cylinder, front site has the punch mark, bullet guide D8875WRA. when I say white I mean no finish. as far as color and texture everthing seemed to match. it had a winchester barrel the chamber was in the white with MW or 3 and a bore was a 1 on the gauge but was frosty. we checked part numbers against his referance books and ever thing seemed right. The only thing he changed on it was the gas cylinder. I was going to ask him if I could take pics but we have been good friends for 20years ,he has sold me a lot of nice stuff and everything has always been exactly what he said it was and I just could not bring take a chance of insulting him, like I said he has always been straight with me. Anyway he is having second thoughts and wants to think about it until Sunday.
---------- Post added at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------
and I forgot one rear sight Knob is a open arrow checkerd knob,the other on is a SA knob that is gro0ved the lock bar is the early type
I too don't see it worth 2.5K. I have 6 WWII ( WW2 ) Garands only one of which has the correct barrel and none with the correct stocks but have many WWII parts on them. At 6-700 dollars each I could in time find the parts but I'm starting at a much lower initial cost and like the one you are looking at would be a rebuild/restoration,nothing more IMHO.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3/M1s091-1.jpg
I did not mean 25K I ment two thousand five hundred dollars
I still think that's too much.
Rice, sorry I too meant 2 and 1/2 or 2.5k I guess I out typed my brain. I did make the correction.
Is there an update to this?
update The seller backed out he was reluctant about selling it in the first place and I only got him interested because I had a nazi high power and a like new correct grade H&R that he has wanted for a long time. and we were . Also I went to the trouble to get all of the part numbers and post but nobody came back to tell me if the parts listed were correct and most of the opinions I did get was that 2500.00 was to much. So I did not push it. The actual deal was I was going to give him the Hi Power H&R and 1922 M2 and he was going to give me 500 and the winchester
I always thought "frosted," is still pitted, but it does sound better. Are all the small, internal parts correct, Winchester parts? Is the barrel Winchester? Are you saying the seller is going to put a Winchester gas cylinder on for you? What are the specs on the muzzle and throat? Sight unseen, I would pass. Can you post pics, before you pay for it? How does the overall finish look?
Charlie, Rice was not allowed to take pictures of the WRA.
the bore gauged out a little less then a 2. To me the bore looked good, just a little dark, He was going to put on a numbered WRA gas tube that by the book was about 3 months to early for the gun. everything else looked right to me as far as color and texture and the part numbers seemed to check out by the book I posted most of the part numbers in a previous post but no one posted a opinion if they were correct or not. anyway he had second thoughts about selling it and after getting opinions about value on a early win with the wrong butt stock and the wrong elevation knob he I let it drop.
Rice, I think you did the right thing, by passing on it as I said it seemed high priced for what it was. I did browse the parts you listed and as I said it seemed to be someones attempt to make the rifle as close to correct as possible, not that there is anything wrong with that.. Alot of great parts, many on my wish list I would have to say. Good luck and good hunting.
daven
this subject was dead but I was talking to the guy the other day and he is wanting to scrape up money for a us property marked M16 and offered to sale the 1941 winchester for 2 K from looking at it and checking against a referance book all parts are correct except for post war stock. win lockbar knob and the win numbered gas cylinder is 3 months to early for the receiver number. at 2 K would the rifle be worth the sum total of parts? I have posted part numbers on a previous post on this thread thanks
It sounds like you're more or less in love with this one. I wouldn't buy it at all just because of the history I have read in this post. With a shabby bore I wouldn't be interested at all. The rear sight is VERY important as it's about the first thing a fellow collector will lay eye's on. That's going to cost you and they're hard to find. If the rifle's not right it's not right. If you buy something that isn't right, it may consume you over time. I know, it's happened to me.
So what I'm saying is no, leave it alone. Just my thoughts.