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Yep another newbie with more stupid questions. I know my rifle is a 1935 Ishapore No 1 Mk III. My question have to do with the brass ID disk in the stock. Can someone please tranlate or decipher this?
F.A
2.41
B
304
Then below that crossed out
831 or something like that.
Once I find out what unit it was issued to I can find out where this rifle has been. So far I gathered that it was issued February of 1941 but that is all. any help will be greatly appreciated
F.A....... Field Artillery, 304th Battery?
Ferozepore Auxiliaries?
Sorry I can't say, friend.
Send BUFFDOG a PM and ask: he has my book of Indian markings.
But that's okay, because I have THREE books of his that I haven't given back!
Wondering if it MIGHT be a refurb date?
.
If they are Briitish markings then Brian Dick at BDLLtd has a little book for sale that lists them taken directly from the 1903 to 1942 Equipment regulations
I research the 304th FA and it was an American unit in World War I. There was also a 304th FA Field Ambalance but that was Canadian and also in ww1. The only 304th I found in the Britsh Order of Battle was the 304th Anti Aircraft. But that one is a R.A or T.A... off to search some more
We were close... Ferozipur Arsenal. I saw some pics of other marking and it's pretty close to what I have on my SMLE brass ID disk. Now to figure out what the rest of the disk says
Try going to enfield resource.com and look under markings, you might find some leads there. cheers, good question
I would dispute that the FA indicates F-Arsenal because the butt marking disc was for unit markinfgs and not an Arsenal marking. If it went through an Arsenal FTR then it'd be marked on the butt where it'd remain marked until the next time. Whereas the disc was made to be changed whenever need be.
I'm no expert at these things (or ANY things now that I think of it) but all the arsenals did was to receive kit in from the BOD's - that's the Base Ordnance Depots, - rebuild them to new spec and they then sent them back to the BOD's for re-issue. That's how it worked here at Fazakerley and Enfield and as India followed us pretty closely, I woulkd assume that's how they did it too. But marking discs are for unit marking according to the last Equipment Regulation on the subject
There actually is pretty good evidence around that the Indian Army did stamp issuing arsenal initials on the disks, similar to how they stamped them on the butts of rifles in the pre-Lee era. Several Gurkha marked rifles for example have shown up with both unit marks and an arsenal mark (usually R.P. for Rawal Pindi). F.A is very likely Firozpur/pore Arsenal, F.W for Ft William shows up from time to time, and A.A is another (likely Allahabad Arsenal). Martini rifles that went through Indian arsenals usually have the full name of the arsenal stamped as a roundel, along with a stores or issue date.
I've been starting a collection of pictures on my home machine, and I'll see if I can dig them up.
Here are a few...An East Indian Railway Rifles disk with an 'AA', a Sappers & Miners outfit with a 'K.A' ...likely Karachi but I wouldn't swear to that, and a 1/6 Gurkha rifle with an 'R.P'.
Attachment 27194Attachment 27195Attachment 27196
I see what you're getting at JR but surely Rawlpindi marked as RP would be the equivalent of DW for Delaware or WT for Washington when it's all one word ..... no?
Off at a tangent, I seem to remember reading that when the Indian Army changed Corps/Regiments to reflect the British order of battle, such as Ordnance Corps, Service Corps, Royal Indian Engineers etc etc, only the Bengal Sappers and Miners retained their old traditional Sappers and Miners title instead of changing to Royal Indian Engineers
I've run across both versions, both spelled out...'Rawal Pindi' and 'Rawalpindi'; and on disks... 'RP' and 'R.P'
The roundels stamped on the butts of some pre-Lee rifles seem to provide a bit of a clue, as they're most often spelled out. IIRC, I've seen one on a Martini spelled with a distinct gap between Rawal and Pindi, and Brigadier-General H.A. Young, director of ordnance factories in India from 1917 to 1920, uses the spelling Rawal Pindi in his "The East India Company's Arsenals & Manufactories". Also some use the word 'Arsenal', some just the location, which would also seem to coincide with what turns up on some of the disks.
The thing is, that all of the disks formatted in this manner seem to coincide rather neatly with the names of Indian Arsenals...F.W - Fort William, AA or A.A Allahabad or Allahabad Arsenal (had an interesting conversation with Hambone from the K98k boards who holds the opinion that Alexandria might be another possibility there), F.A - Firozpur Arsenal. R.P or RP for the abovementioned Rawalpindi, and K.A, which as I recall, fits two possibilities, Karachi, and one other that escapes me at the moment.
There's certainly no rock solid proof that I'm aware of for this theory, but it certainly seems a possibility, and an interesting avenue for some further study/research.
The only marks on the stock is 388 twice, the letter "B" and the I.S.A. with the up arrow emblem. I just noticed that the stock has been fix in two spots and the stocks parts are different from each other. The top parts are shiny while the bottom part is dull and marred with scratches and pits. Looks like I got a hodge-podge rifle. I finally got time to take a pic of the brass disk for better identification
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...assdisk1-1.jpg
You're dead right about the Rawlpindi being one or two words JR............, just looked it up! Interesting thread and between us all, we could get to the bottom of and decipher the Indian FTR markings.
Anyone else out there got any on a disc?
What WOULD clear up the querie was to see the arsenal mark stamped into the butt as they did PLUS it being marked on a disc too
Just dug one up out of the old archives...purportedly from an Indian issued LEC. This one has a Quetta Roundel and a Q.A stamped disk dated to 1925. Near as I've been able to find, the fort at Quetta was converted to an arsenal around 1900.
Attachment 27229
I would like to thank you all in helping me decipher this rifle. When I purchase a C&R I like to trace it back as far as I can. I've been tracing back a what I believe is a 1903 Turkish Mauser. What is so strange about it is that it's carbine lenght with what looks to be a factory cut barrel. But that's another thread. Once again thank you all for the help.
Don't know if its any help but heres a pic of my 1927 Ishapore butt with a FA stamp, iirc rifle came with no butt disc.
It sounds like Ishapore SMLE's are a complete sub-catagory of the Lee Enfeild. My wife says if there is one rifle in a gun show that has the most interesting past I will usually be immediately drawn to it the minute I step into the building.
I'll have to take some pics of the buttstock and invert them to a negative image to look for unseen markings in the wood.
I've noticed on the forum map of guests that we have a couple of guest from India who crop-up occasionally. One in the North along the Nepal end of the Country and another in the South East area. Is there any way that we can have a heading across the top of the page welcoming them aboad and being interested in Enfields (that's presumably why they've come onto the forum as a guest in the first place), maybe they can answer some of the Indian Enfield questions.
Just a thought.......... Anyone out there know how to do it? Maybe with a banner..................
A resident Ishapore expert would be nice. I just wish I could trace where in the world my SMLE has been. Did it see action in the Pacific or European Theater of WW2? I find tracing a rifle's life as interesting as collecting and shooting them.