New Member - No 4T question

Hi All - I am a new member to this forum - but been shooting SMLE's for a few years.
I have a question that i would appreciate comments on:-
I am looking at a No 4 T at pres. It has its box (though not stencilled as a No15) aScout scope - A no 8 Scope box (green tin - but without the leather strap) A scope and of course the Rifle.
The rifle has all the correct markings as a BSA Shirley - Holland & Holland conversion.
However 2 small details make me hesitate (besides the price at over £4K).
1). The rifle is not marked on the receiver as a No4 Mk1 - but i have read somewhere that these markings were machined off to allow the scope mount fittings)
2). The scope number (behind the receiver on the rifle butt) has been XXX'd out and a new number punched just below it.https://www.milsurps.com/images/smilies/yikes.gif
What concerns me is that the rifle is a 1945 production and the "new" scope is a perfectly good No32 -- BUT it is a MK 1. (not a Mk 3 as expected at this date).
Does this happen ? does it make the rifle less attractive from the collection point -- i.e. despite the fact that the Mk 1 is NOT as good a scope as the Mk3.
Any info / comments would be appreciated !https://www.milsurps.com/images/smilies/bow.gif

Hi Ken,

The rifle as you describe it does sound like it might have been put together to make up a set. Best thing is to get as many decent photos as you can, and then post them here so that we can have a look at the details.

Caveat Emptor: a very large proportion of 4(T)s remaining in circulation in UK are rebuilt, put together from parts, or altered to "match". My advice would always be to desist from buying any sniper or premium rifle until you have examined enough to become familiar with the type.

A mismatched gun might be worth the sum of the parts: maybe about £2,800 or so. A full matching set probably will cost over £3,500 these days.

Firstly I'd advise you to have a really good nose around the milsurps forum, finding threads relating to 4ts, fake, markings etc in your searches - you'll find it very useful in terms of comparing what's in front of you to genuine no4ts.
Re the receiver markings - on bsa-made guns especially the no4 mk1 markings are often very faint and sometimes not visible at all, so that's not too unusual. No markings are taken off for the scope pads.
Photos of the gun would be helpful to accurately ascertain it's genuine-ness...
But a 1945 gun wouldn't have a mk1 scope with it - it would have a mk3. This isn't a major drama and if the bracket's genuine etc... well, there are a lot of mismatched scopes and rifles around and if it's a genuine mismatch, at least someone's not tried to 'match' it up. I presume the scope number on the butt doesn't match the one on the scope. Does the bracket have a number on it?
I'd say £4k for a mismatch, even with the box and tin (both can be repros so beware) is a bit steep.

Tb says it all and as pe states £4k is well over the top

Thanks for that PrinzEugen - the scope mount has the same number as the rifle so that checks out.
The "new" scope's serial Number is punched on the gunstock just behind the action & just below the XXX'd out previous scope number - which i assume was a Mk3.
It's not usual to cross out the old number and punch the "new" scope serial number on the stock ? most would just leave it as a miss-match ?
Got me confused !
But the Mk1 is an inferior scope to a Mk3 .( and a bit cheaper to replace i suppose).
Thanks for your comments !

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------

Thanks TB
Looks like a re-assembly job i suppose. But as i posted to PE why bother obliterating the original scope serial number and stamping in the "new" old one on the stock ?
Would a military refurb replace the scope with an old MK1 ??

It sounds just like my No.4T and I KNOW that mine is bitsa. That is say, I have a 1945 BSA with a Roger Payne repro bracket and a No.32 Mk1 - which is wrong for the year of the rifle.

I'll wait for the "fount of all knowledge" on this stuff to confirm but I just can't believe that REME would swap a No.32 MK.3 for Mk.1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ken Scholey

Thanks TB
Looks like a re-assembly job i suppose. But as i posted to PE why bother obliterating the original scope serial number and stamping in the "new" old one on the stock ?
Would a military refurb replace the scope with an old MK1 ??

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It was standard military procedure to bar out the old scope number on the butt and restamp the new number below it should the scope need to be replaced - thus individuals do this to give the impression that the replacement was done "in service", which obviously makes the rifle a lot more "original" than one recently cobbled together.

I'll leave Peter Laidler to comment whether he ever saw a Mk1 scope replace a Mk3, but i think the rest of us have only ever seen rifles where Mk1 and Mk2 scopes were replaced by Mk3s....

Ahh !
Therein lies the answer :- yes i have seen BAR'D OUT numbers - with a bar !
But - the old scope number on this rifle has been obliterated with X's !
So definately NOT done by the military !
Thanks everyone for the information !
Guess i will keep looking and give this rifle a miss.
Regards
Ken

Thanks for the reply Beerhunter!
Ken

---------- Post added at 08:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------

Thanks again Thunderbox .
The level of help is brilliant - looks like i have a lot to learn.
Ken

Ken,
Sorry I'm a bit late in the day, but I think the lads above have given you sound advice. It may well be a genuine rifle but I've never heard of the military replacing a Mk3 scope with a Mk1. It's highly improbable. I'd almost lay odds that the rifle & scope assembly have been cobbled together to make it more valuable by being matching, albeit re-matched. I would also be suspicious of the rifle number on your bracket if it is matching to your rifle. If the bracket & Mk1 scope came together then someone may have been making busy with the letter stamps on the bracket as well as on the wrist of the butt.
As an aside, I note you are in the UK. My pal & I, apart from anyone else in the trade, rebuilt nearly 150 4T's between 1997 & the present & sold most of them into the trade. I have seen MANY of them in the hands of other dealers since; including some 'matched up', some with very entertaining stories of how the vendor was reluctantly selling it after 25 years etc etc. Thus, there are many scopeless rifles around just waiting to be 'mated' to No32's.
Learn as much as you can & don't believe any stories you hear....!

ATB

Roger,

Quick question, did you ever keep a register or put any secret marks on the 150 No4 Ts that you and your pal rebuilt?

Regards,

Mike

Thanks Roger - i will obviously need to search around a bit before i find a good 4T.
Your help has been invaluable and the forum a great help to newbies like me !
Regards
Ken

Mike,
I have all of the serials, but will be out of the country from tomorrow till next Monday. If you want me to look anything up just pm me any time from Monday onwards.

ATB

This thread contains some of the best info I have ever read.

We would never replace a current Mk of telescope with an obsolete or obsolescent one. With ONE exception that I recall - that will never affect you out there.

When some No4T rifles were accidentally run over by a lorry, we removed some of the Mk3 telescopes from the damaged rifles and used those Mk3 telescopes to replace some old Mk2 telescopes on the undamaged rifles. THEN the damaged/run-over now written off rifles were returned to Ordnance with obsolescent Mk2 telescopes. But they weren't destined to see the light of day again anyway. And don't tell anyone, but even then, we kept a couple of the telescopes and brackets for what some people call '.....a rainy day.....'

Thank You Peter,
I must say i have found the Forum nothing short of exceptional in its help and information.
My thanks to all !
Regards
Ken