Trying to identify this one

Hi,

I have been searching the gallery and other posts, but not knowing any search terms specific to this rifle has me baffled.

Here are some pics. He remembers shooting this rifle. But he can not remember which one it is. He thought it was chambered for .303 British, but it is not. Bolt will not close. He did find some .303 Savage, and 30-30 fired cases in his ammo box that was stored with this rifle.

It will be about a month before I can pick up the rifle and take it to a gunsmith.

Any idea what it is? Only marking I could read was a matching serial number on the Rifle and the bolt. 64820

Lots of damage to the stock with multiple repairs and existing cracks. He wants to shoot it again. I will try to create an album with lots more pics and closeups.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...11/09/LS-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...11/09/RS-1.jpg

OK
I was able to create an album. ID NEEDED - Oneshot2008s Photo Gallery - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Well, the photos are okay, but the ones that would REALLY help aren't there.

A close-up of the ACTION including the rear of the BOLT would really help: that looks like the emergency-issue smooth cocking-piece on her, which would indicate a rifle which has never been factory-rebuilt. That is noteworthy in itself.

The rifle is a Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark III*, but that's all I can say for sure. It is late in WW-1 production or possibly WW-2 production: it uses the LARGE screw for the nose-cap.

The information that most of us would like to see is under the bolt-handle, most likely. Flip up the bolt-handle and take a peek. These rifles were made in 6 different factories, under 7 different designations. The factories are:
Enfield: made about 60% of total British production in WW-1, none in WW-2.
BSA (Birmingham Small Arms): made about 30% of British production in WW-1, continued in WW-2 as only remaining British maker of this rifle.
LSA (London Small Arms): made about 5% of total British production, all in WW-1.
SSA (Standard Small Arms) and NRF (National Rifle Factory) were the same plant, before and after it was nationalised late in 1917. Rifles date from 1915 onward and total 5% of British WW-1 production, mostly in 1918, none in WW-2.
Ishapore: made rifles mostly for India, but they did get around.
Lithgow: built these rifles from 1912 through to 1956, in Australia.

UNDER THE BOLT HANDLE:
Rifles are marked with the Royal Signet (Crown and letters ER (1903-1910) or GR (1910-1936) or ER again (1936) and then GR again (1936 to 1944)..... and the DATE of production. I don't know how the Aussie rifles made duing the reign of the current Queen are marked, never having seen one. Perhaps one of our knowledgeable Australian friends can tell us. The FACTORY mark is also there, as is the MODEL of the rifle, in this case Mark III although it has Mark III* characteristics and should be so marked.

The stock appears to be walnut, just greasy/oily, which means that it is possible that it isn't Aussie or Indian: they both used local woods.... as well as walnut, just to make things hard. It has a 5-digit serial number, though, so even the factory is hard to pin down: Enfield and BSA (90% of total production) used 4-digit numbers with letter groups. My NRF 1918 is marked the same, as are both my SSAs. On the other hand, I also have rifles here from BSA, Lithgow, Ishapore and LSA, all with 5-digit numbers, so the hard-and-fast rules aren't hard and they aren't fast. Wartime changes even RULES.

But it SHOULD be a .303. If a .303 round won't chamber, there is every chance that there is something (likely a broken case) obstructing the chamber. Take a close look to see if there's something in there.

And try for a couple of shots, nice and clear, of the area under the bolt-handle, of the action from the right side and the action from the REAR. Those will tell us a LOT.

It does have possibilities, though. You would not believe some of the utter JUNK that I have worked with, over the years, and gotten shooting again.

Looks like you have a new friend.... just a few decades older than you.:dancingbanana::dancingbanana::dancingbanana:: dancingbanana::dancingbanana:

Have fun!
.

Those photo's are what one would expect of someone trying not to have a firearm identified, almost deliberately avoiding any positive marking or body group that would effectively place this rifle.
I certainly hope this was an honest mistake, not one of those suspect threads that we occasionally see. Looking foreward to some clarifying photo's.

If a .303 will not chamber, its quite likely there is a headless broken case stuck in the chamber. It sure as heck is NOT a 30-30 or a .303 savage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Those photo's are what one would expect of someone trying not to have a firearm identified, almost deliberately avoiding any positive marking or body group that would effectively place this rifle.
I certainly hope this was an honest mistake, not one of those suspect threads that we occasionally see. Looking foreward to some clarifying photo's.

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I just took a lot of pics. I did not know what areas to target until I received replies. Working on doing the pics needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Sukey

If a .303 will not chamber, its quite likely there is a headless broken case stuck in the chamber. It sure as heck is NOT a 30-30 or a .303 savage

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Hey John, how come it can't be a 30-30 ? there's one down our gun club, looks just like my .303, I think a lot were converted 'Down Under'.

Though I must admit that I agree, a detached case neck would be the prime suspect.

You guys are great. I am already learning alot of what to look for. Would the short barrel mean this was a Calvary gun?
I hope these pics help. The stamping under the bolt pic is not to clear. I am having trouble with reflections.

The stamping is:
In the center is a Crown with the letter R under it. This is inverted in regards to the other stampings.

To the right is a larger font size 41 with the 4 being a deeper stamp than the 1. Not sure if the 1 is actually a stamp.

To the left looks like a series of 3 symbols that I can not make out. They are worn. This row is in a vertical row compared to the horizontal of the 41.

The new pics are here: more pics to help identify - Photo 1403

I was just able to increase the contrast of the stamping under the bolt. The symbols can be seen better in this one than in the album.

[IMG]http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/s...castings/6.jpg[/IMG]

Please take some pictures of the right side of the butt socket under the bolt handle. Thank you.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Please take some pictures of the right side of the butt socket under the bolt handle. Thank you.


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OK. Thanks for asking again until I finally understood. After wiping the gun down some more I can see what you mean. Pic is the best I can get.

It is:
CROWN
GR
BS.ACO Not sure of the O
1913 May be 1915
Sht.LE
III

[IMG]http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/s...castings/1.jpg[/IMG]

Yes it is BSA CO. And looks like it is 1913.


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If I am understanding all the replies, then this would mean it is a 1913 Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark III, chambered in .303 British.

Is this correct?

I cleaned the rifle and did not find a stuck case. There was some crud built up in the chamber and 2 burs sticking up like someone had tried to use a screwdriver of something to scrape the crud out.
This is about the gap that the bolt did not close.

The burs were about a 1/2 before the barrel rifling end of the chamber. I used a fine curved Silversmith Riffler File to remove the burs.

I forgot to get a .303 British round from the owner. I will have to check if it now chambers after I get the round.

I'll stick to my original view.

Does the bolt close all the way without a round in the chamber? If the bolt head is unscrewed one turn the bolt may ALMOST close when empty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

I'll stick to my original view.

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Just what the world needs. Another keyboard commando who thinks they can read someone's intent of what was posted as opposed to the actual words posted. Words have meaning. Just because you may have more knowledge of the subject, does not make you an expert. A true expert is willing to teach and inform others. You impress me as a waste of the oxygen you are breathing. If you have nothing useful to contribute to help me, STFU.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Does the bolt close all the way without a round in the chamber? If the bolt head is unscrewed one turn the bolt may ALMOST close when empty.

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When he first brought it to the range, with the bolt head screwed all the way, and a 303 British round, the bolt does not close, leaving about a 1/2" gap. Nothing in the chamber blocking it.

That is why I was wondering if it could be a 30-30 or a 303 savage. The owner knows he has fired it in the past. I have to go back to his home later this week. He has some fired 30-30, 303 savage, and 303 British in the same cartridge box. I forgot to gab some when I brought the rifle home to clean it for him and try to get it identified. I appreciate all the help from all that have replied EXCEPT muffet.2008. He seems to think I am lying about trying to get it identified. Or because he does not know, then his only gratification is to post replies implying that I am lying.

Hey Oneshot, I wonder if you step back a bit and re-read your comments, do you ever think to yourself just how abrasive they are and how obnoxious you sound? Quite clearly, and in the nicest way, you don't know anything about this rifle. Nothing wrong with that at all and good on you for admitting it but the good people on this forum are just chipping in to offer good sound advice..............

Hi Peter
Prior to starting the thread I read several of your articles. Very interesting stuff. The only problem I have with muffet is he keeps implying I am deliberately not taking pictures of identifying marks. I really appreciated all those that have helped. I will be closing my account soon if I can not fix the computer problem that started after downloading one of the PDF files for m the site. I keep getting tracking cookie blocked messages and something that downloaded is blocking the privacy setting in my AVG antivirus software. Even uninstalling the software then doing a re-install did not solve the problem. And my Advanced System Care program is being blocked from opening. It does not respond to the command.

Yep, you're right oneshot. Sometimes I come across somewhat abrasive, however, to date all your photo's have been very difficult to interpret, including the last one.
I am still debateing whether it is 1913 or 1923, there appears to be a difference in the shape of the first 1 as opposed to the next. As this photo is also blurred, and you state you have been following this forum for some time, I would have assumed, maybe wrongfully, that you would know exactly what information was required.
All the relavant information concerning chambering is on the barrel near the knox, these shots are also impossible to interpret, if this firearm has been rebarreled to another calibre, this is where this information should be, other than that, there can only be an obstruction, ie: seperated case.

THANKS Muffett

Actually I do not retain much of what I read. I had a severe head injury years ago and short time memory is all screwed up.

The advice in your last post is good but my camera is not. And I shake a little.

BUT, with all the advice I have received, and the date stamped on the rifle, I believe it is a 1913 Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark III*, chambered in .303 British. Could be 1915, date stamp looks like a 3 in a pic, but more like a 5 under a magnifier.

I solved the bolt not closing issue. It would stop about a 1/2 inch before closing. Overlooking the obvious, I was thinking the round was too long. THEN IT FINALLY DAWNED ON ME, the bolt cocks while closing. When the trigger would catch the bolt to cock it, this is the point it stuck. It would function OK without a round in the gun. But finally last night it stuck without a round in the gun.

I made a tool to take the firing pin out of the bolt. This would be the insert tool after the bolt head is unscrewed. The firing pin/spring assembly would not unscrew. I soaked the whole thing in solvent overnight. took it apart and the spring and channel was loaded with rust. I believe that when the scale was in the right spot, it jammed the bolt so it would not cock. I polished it with some bore paste and all is fine now.

Thanks again to ALL for the advice and help with the identification.

PS: The virus was from my wife going to a site and downloading a bunch of stuff directly to her files instead of to the desktop. I always save to the desktop, then scan for virus before opening a file. In checking the download log, I saw that she had done this after I download a file from here, but prior to the next time I booted up. She rarely uses the computer so I thought I got the virus from this site.

Your rifle is a Mk III not a Mk III*. The Mk III* were introduced around 1916.


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OK,

Thanks. I found a site on index where I can download a manual for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Your rifle is a Mk III not a Mk III*. The Mk III* were introduced around 1916.


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Appreciate all the help. Just so I do not give the owner any wrong info until he can take the gun to a gun smith, I have a last question. It is my understanding that this would be a .303 British caliber. Was it ever made in anything else? Possibly a 30-30? Now that they are not needed should I delete the albums?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneshot2008

Appreciate all the help. Just so I do not give the owner any wrong info until he can take the gun to a gun smith, I have a last question. It is my understanding that this would be a .303 British caliber. Was it ever made in anything else? Possibly a 30-30?...

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There have been post-military issue caliber conversions done, but it it has the military barrel it's very most likely still .303 Mk.VII SAA caliber, as aside from some 1960s Indian 7,62x51(.308 Win) "2A"/"2A1" rifles, all production issued SMLEs were chambered just for the one round. ETA: Well, almost- there's .22 rim fire training rifles, too.

Setting the barrel back enough to do a rechamber for .30-30 or .303 Savage just isn't practical as all of the features from the action forward would no longer fit the fore stock. Remotely possible that a barrel could have been sleeved, but another problem remains- reliable feeding from the magazine. .30-30 is right out! Too short AND too skinny. By the time the magazine was filled to capacity, I reckon you'd have quite a mess. However, having not tried it, I could be wrong. Feel free to try it, preferably at the range.

(Just don't try shooting a .30-30 in a .303 chamber- it may result in a case wall failure near the web of the cartridge- it will when fired in a 7,62x54r. Fair amount of gas leakage!)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...20100511-1.jpg
.30-30 fired in a Mosin Nagant under "controlled " conditions (as shown below)- Note the ruptured area at the lower left of the case. Possible same result in a .303 chamber, but less likely.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...12010044-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oneshot2008

Now that they are not needed should I delete the albums?

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If you are referring to the photo album, I think this site auto copies the photos after a short time, so it should be OK to remove them from your computer and photo hosting site if you want. But give it a little time as we wouldn't want to lose context in your thread. This thread may "resurface" months later!

jmoore that was very educational. I have been reloading for over 30 years and I am well aware of what a case rupture can do. Never had the problem, but learned about during my early years. Big Thanks for reminding me. The owner is bringing some fired cases and live ammo over so I can check the fit. If the .303 British does not chamber, Then we will have a gun smith check it with a bore scope. I had all this equipment back in the 70's as a weapons instructor but no longer own one.

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

Hey all, I almost forgot to apologize to all for sounding so gruff. AND A BIG APOLOGY to muffett.

Not your concern but I need to stay of the computer when the meds have me in the nervous upset mode.:yikes: :banghead:

Bad enough I tend to use short clipped sentences, without being predisposed to quickly interpreting someone else post incorrectly. I do not form a sentence very well anymore. It is hard for me to convey what I mean, in just one attempt. I need to focus on re-reading before hitting submit.

:red face::red face::red face::red face::red face::red face:

Sure looks like 1923 NOT 1913. No it's not a cavalry rifle, ALL No1MK3's are that length. I will go with the headless cartridge case. stuck in the chamber. IF it was NOT a .303 the barrel would not look like that

I finally made it back to the owner's house. After cleaning out the bolt and polishing the inside as I described, .303 British chambers and shoots fine.

Thanks everyone for all the advise and help. :thup:

I believe some of these rifles were converted from .303 British to .308. Could that be the caliber?