Santa Fe M1903A3-a caution on shooting

There is considerable data out there on the Santa Fe/National Ordnance M1903A3 clones which feature a cast, rather than forged, receiver. Most opinion is not to shoot these because of documented failures due to improperly heat treatment.

I recently purchased one of these as a non-shooter parts source. S/N is 5001400. On the basis of my examination the "do not shoot" warning is a wise one. This rifle is in very nice condition showing very little signs of wear or shooting. Apparently the original owner did shoot it a bit. On checking headspace I determined that it was in excess of the field gauge with the Remington 03A3 bolt that it came with. I have not yet removed the barrel, but when I get around to it, I expect to find some setback of the bolt lug seats due to improper heat treatment. Just for fun I may run a headspace check with a selection of new/un-worn bolts.

I bought this piece as a parts source, and it is a good one with a mix of all-GI parts incl an as new Rem 2-44 barrel and a very nice Smith-Corona stock. Interestingly, it has a M1903 upper band (need to drive off the 03A3 front sight band to get if off) and trigger guard unit in place of the correct stamped 03A3 parts. The rest of it is a mix of 03 and 03A3 parts. The cast receiver features a straight pin in place of the proper sear retaining pin ( no seat for the head of the pin in the receiver) and there is no clip slot fore of the rear sight.

I've had a National Ord. for close on a year now, and I've probably got about 200 rounds through it, all HXP, Usually shot in 20 round sessions, I've carefully checked headspace each time. Not a hint of movement or peening. I'll continue to monitor it, but the fact is I've read as many good reports on Nat. Ords. as bad ones.

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Originally Posted by purple

There is considerable data out there on the Santa Fe/National Ordnance M1903A3 clones which feature a cast, rather than forged, receiver. Most opinion is not to shoot these because of documented failures due to improperly heat treatment.

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Is the documentation similar to Hatchers on the low number 1903 rifles, and available on the internet?

You can do a search under "Santa Fe" or "National Ordnance" on this forum and come up with a lot of commentary incl some reported failures due to excessive headspace. Same with the Jouster/CSP website and their Springfield forum. Some of this commentary is quite compelling and I find it hard to disregard.

Since my first post I ran a few new bolts, incl a Rem 03A3, an SC, a SA/Rem 8620, a long CC, and a long B&S, with the Clymer "no-go" gauge and found that, except for the new Rem 03A3 bolt, none of these would close much past the fully open/vertical position of the bolt handle-which is surprising. Except for the new Rem 03A3 bolt, none of these would close fully on a GI "go" gauge either.:eek:

I bought this rifle as a parts source and paid accordingly. I have a number of other Springfields which I do shoot, so my personal choice is not to shoot this one.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Is the documentation similar to Hatchers on the low number 1903 rifles, and available on the internet?

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Hey Johnny,

I have no "documentation" about them but will tell you that when I was in gunsmith school in 1982 the school would not allow them in. (even though they took in a LOT of other junk in !!) Check with chuckindenver. I believe he has pics of failed ones.

FWIW,

Emri

I went and did a quick surch for you and found this.....

National Ordance 1903a3 Reciver, Are they safe to shoot

The pics are no longer available to view.

I did think it rather strange that you had never entertained this discussion before today.

FWIW,

Emri

Hey Emri,

Commentary and documentation aren't exactly the same thing.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

Gee whiz Emri,

Did the question about documentation rub a nerve, or what happened?

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Hey Emri,

Commentary and documentation aren't exactly the same thing.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

Gee whiz Emri,

Did the question about documentation rub a nerve, or what happened?

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Nah, nothing strikes the nerves these days, I'm getting comfortably numb in "old age". I responded to your post first with what I knew from schooling. Other things I learned there have born out well over the years. I have no personal experience with the NO/Santa Fe rifles, just have heard the same thing over and over for many years, so there must be something to it. I guess what I put in the second post was commentary, though there were some pics later in the thread. But I guess even a rocket scientist could blow up a rocket if he did something wrong, so maybe they (pics) don't prove anything. I have seen pics of extremely strong revolvers blown to smithereens through carelessness.

The glass is empty,

Night Y'all !!

Santa Fe and National Ord rifles are Junk, unsafe, and a bomb ticking...nothing more then a parts doner...
less then 2000 of them made, and more then a few iv seen failed, in my area alone...not very good odds...
ill shoot a low number 03 ,,,but will never fire a Nat Ord or Santa Fe POS..ever..
sooner of later it will fail, the receiver ringe stretches easy, and is soft...have yet to see one hold headspace..or one then didnt need a bit of grinding by the maker to work..
if you shoot one...remember....i told you so...
and yes....Johhny. i have lots of pictures, they are posted on this and other forums....that in itself is documentation enough for me...without typing out long winded storys of guys shooting and the failures...
FYI: same company gave us the welded together Garands, 1911 pistols, M14,s and made some of the cast Garands, and Carbines,,,and a host of other junked up home made junk..buyer beware, other then having one in your vast collection for display and not to shoot, i dont see any reason why anyone would ever want one...other then the parts it hosts.

here ya go....keep on shooten em...wear your safety glasses, gloves, and hearing protection.:D

I want to add a bit more clarification after my second post where I reported that several new bolts wouldn't close on the no-go gauge with this rifle.

On testing the same bolts again, this time without a headspace gauge, I found that none of them would close or even begin to close. On close examination I found that this is because the bevelled edge at the rear bottom of the right bolt lug will not clear the receiver to begin turning down into the bolt lug recess. The bevel was sufficient on a couple of other bolts to permit them to do this. This tells me that the receiver casting is somewhat off spec in this area.

I also noticed two circular bright spots on the inside of the barrel cone which were obviously created by the front edge of the bolt face making hard contact here:eek:. Still going to roll off the barrel and examine the bolt lug recesses for signs of setback as the original bolt that the rifle was fired with shows headspace in excess of the field gauge.

I don't think I' seeing this clearly. Are you saying there is a problem with the bolt or the receiver?

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Originally Posted by jonnyc

I don't think I' seeing this clearly. Are you saying there is a problem with the bolt or the receiver?

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The receiver. These bolts will function in any of my other M1903s. The receiver is actually the only issue with these pieces as all other components are US GI.