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I am been made aware of a man who has a 1911 that has the serial numbers filed off by the original owner. He was afraid that Uncle Sam would not like him taking a pistol and of course he doesn't.
My question is, "What is the process one uses to restore the impressions?" I understand it is acid. Not my intent to touch the weapon and the present owner is a complete a$$. So I have NO motivation to help him!
I would leave it right there.
I'm kinda with Johnny here, If you aren't motivated to help and he's a dork then leave it. At best you get implicated.
Definitely verbotten!
A forensic chap told me that if the original number had been pressed or rolled in place and then it's been filed/ground off, the original number can usually be identified by the impressed striations left behind when subject to forensic testing (don't ask me how............)
However, if the number has been CUT - as in engraved, then it is usually lost for ever by filing/grinding.
We have an ex IRA Thompson gun No 480 that has had the number ground out. Forensically it was raised to read 482........ the remaining striations of the 0 being misread for a 2. But not bad!
The drama here is that the mere act of attempting to destroy the number is a federal offense. Probably local laws against it too. So even if the number is recovered, things could get messy if the authorities decide they've nothing else to do that day...
The numbers were originally pressed into the receiver with a die, so they would possibly be recoverable, but I have a feeling the cost of having it done would exceed the value of the altered pistol. As jmoore noted, it is federal law that addresses altered or defaced serial numbers, and the person in possession of the weapon is assumed to be the one that altered it. In cases where pistols have been stolen and recovered with the serial number obliterated, the rightful owner has been allowed to have a new serial number applied to the pistol, but normally this does not cover a pistol which has just had it's serial number removed.
It always amazed me how the problem of disguising a stolen military pistol was addressed. On some the UNITED STATES PROPERTY was removed, but the serial number left intact. Others had the serial number removed, but the USP was left intact. On some both the serial number and USP have been removed, but MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY was left intact. Then there are the acceptance marks applied by government inspectors.
All of the legal issues notwithstanding...As I understand it, acid works on stamped numbers due to the fact that the metal under the stamp has been compressed, and is thus denser than the surrounding metal and dissolves at a slower rate when exposed to the acid. Probably not the best technique if one wants to restore a piece though, as it's not exactly a non-destructive procedure .
All the steel over where the serial number was must be dressed down to where it is perfectly flat and smooth as the acid must work uniformly. Considering the location of the serial number on the Model 1911, considerable alteration of the receiver would have to be done to prepare the receiver for the acid treatment.
Should be quite interesting if he ever decided to take it to a gun store to try to sell it.
Funny one: Collector wrote to the Navy to find out some information on a pair of flintlock sea service pistols. Two Navy officers showed up at his door and confiscated them. Seems the Navy NEVER forgets.;)
Nope- the Navy has seized F4F Wildcats and such that were recovered from the bottom of Lake Michigan without permission. The folks that found a rare TBD sunken in the ocean probably still haven't revealed it's location for just such reasons.
I have seen more than one 1911 rendered down for parts and the frame destroyed when brough for sale to a gunshop. Law enforcement is usually handy and they make the call on the weapon's disposition.
Too many Browning action pistols out there to worry about one. I use my TT33 as primary holster carry. 30 cal. gary:rolleyes:
I do not think there is a country around where a pistol/revolver with a removed/tampered/ serial number is legal!!! Nor can one legally possess a firearm with an altered or obliterated serial number or ID number. Correct me if I am wrong here.
I think I would take it as a nice boat anchor and go from there....
Peter--Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
A little unknown secret about the Colt manufactured Thompsons is there is a secret serial number under the foregrip mount on the frame. Many of the early Colt Thompsons that were used from American "busniessmen" during prohibition were traced this way.
--fjruple
Also a number under the rear pistol grip there's a number. So there's actually four. That is, my 1928 had four.
In Germany today the slide is the numbered/controlled part, not the frame. A lot of the post war surpluss P.38 & P1 pistols that have come into the US have had to have a frame nr stamped on them to meet US law.
Thus a GI 45 with the frame nr removed would be legal in Germany. The owner would just have to stamp a number of his choosing on the slide.
Sarge
There are no US marked 1911's in private hands that are not stolen except those captured by German or Chinese troops. Wonder if the Army kept a record?
I'll bet those guns are listed as "lost".
heres the grey area of serial numbers.
law states, that a gunsmith may remove, and replace the same number if being done for restoration, or repair, he can not, change the number..
so...there are ways of raising the ghost so to speak, iv had luck with my digital camera, and playing with it on the computer.. unless its realy ground out..you can sometimes bring the ghost back up, heat will raise it, as will charging it with an electrical currant, and with the use of metal file dust, it attaches to the numbered areas,
most big city crime labs use this to bring back serial numbers....will they do it for you???not likely unless you have good friends in high places..
a good engraver can restore the numbers with the correct size and font...but that aint cheap...
i no longer offer this service, after a guy asked me to {fix} a few questionable examples...
the ATF new law as of Jan 2011, that no body other then a manufacture may engrave or alter the original makers markings on any firearm, changed a lot of things...
by law you may no longer restore the USP markings, Serial number, makers marks ect.....
The DCM sold huge numbers of 1911 and 1911A1 pistols to NRA members in the 1960's. Then there are the pistols brought back to U.S. dealers when the British sold off the pistols Lend-Leased to them in WWII. Lots of legal 1911 and 1911A1 pistols in private hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by arado
There is another method to raise the numbers that I have used successfully: a wire wheel. Same as with the acid method, the compressed metal is harder, and will react differently than the surrounding material. Buffing the serial area with a wire wheel on a bench grinder can bring up the numbers.
Just stay away. No DNA, no fingerprints, and a recommendation that the owner surrender the frame (at least) to the authorities. What the owner does after that is on his head. Unless you like risking the loss of your firearms owning rights, plus legal fees, etc. It's just not worth the trouble.
Thank you. I am no longer concerned about the history of my two US Government 1911's of WW1 vintage. GaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers
The pistol can be given to ATF and they will take the gun and deterime the guns status if possible. If not on a current stolen list, it may well be returned to the owner with a new serial number on it. I have seen a German WWII PPK that had the serial ground off. The ATF put a new serial on the inside of the frame, so as not to further deface the pistol. But you may lose the gun if ATF finds something they don't like about it.
if it were mine i would get it straightened out with the BATF - hire a lawyer if there is a question in your mind , but i would stay clear of it if it were not mine , there is more than enough trouble out there to go around and gun owners do not need to be involved with questionable guns ,
i should think the threat of loosing ones gun 'rights' would be ample reason to stay clear of these kind of things , if the guys an a$$ why involve yourself in his problem , and if all that does not makeit clear - federal charges can result in hard time in prison , i cannot imagine going to prison to help out an A$$#ole
That is not correct. Slide, barrel AND frame are all restricted parts that must be numbered. And they always were numbered, right back to the days of the C96 pistol. And removing a number has always been a criminal offence, right back to the 19th century.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge13
So if anyone out there has a German pistol that is NOT so numbered, it is likely to be of dubious origin - A mixmaster or worse.
:wave:
Patrick
If that's true, I guess I should throw all my pre 1940 PP's & PPK's in the trash,as
they were only numbered on the frame and never on the barrel and only later in
the war did numbered slides show up:confused:
IF that is the case, WHY did some of the military/police P1s have no ser nr on the frame?
I've seen them, among other places at an importers who was stamping the slide nr on the frame.
A Luftwaffe friend also said that their P1s did not have ser nrs on the frame because that was not a controlled item.
Sarge
I appreciate that you may be uncertain, but if you think about it, there is one very good reason for numbering frames, regardless of any legal requirement, and that is to ensure that pistols dismantled in an armory for servicing are properly matched up again when reassembled. As to the legal requirements, of that there is absolutely no doubt whatsover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge13
Please check out this site:
http://www.asamnet.de/~ehrenred/ersatzt/p-1.htm
and you will see that barrel (Lauf), slide (Schlitten) and frame (Griffstück) are all restricted items.
As a general caveat, may I point out (not for the first time) that on such matters I like to be sure that I have documentary evidence. I have therefore included an extract from the pertinent German law.
BeschG - Beschussgesetz§ 1 Zweck, Anwendungsbereich
Gesetz über die Prüfung und Zulassung von Feuerwaffen, Böllern, Geräten, bei denen zum Antrieb Munition verwendet wird, sowie von Munition und sonstigen Waffen
Vom 11. Oktober 2002
(BGBl. I Nr. 73 vom 16.10.2002 S. 3970; 25.11.2003 S. 2304; 31.10.2006 S 2407; 26.3.2008 S. 426 08;:: 17.7.2009 S. 2062 09)
Gl.-Nr.: 7133-4
Abschnitt 1
Allgemeine Bestimmungen
(1) Dieses Gesetz regelt die Prüfung und Zulassung vonzum Schutz der Benutzer und Dritter bei bestimmungsgemäßerVerwendung.
- Feuerwaffen, Böllern, Geräten, bei denen zum Antrieb Munition oder hülsenlose Treibladungen verwendet werden, einschließlich deren höchstbeanspruchten Teilen,
- Munition und
- sonstigen Waffen
(2) Dieses Gesetz ist nicht anzuwenden auf(3) Der Bauartzulassung unterliegen
- Feuerwaffen, die zum Verschießen von Munition bestimmt sind, bei der die Ladung nicht schwerer als 15 Milligramm ist,
- veränderte Schusswaffen nach Anlage 1 Abschnitt 1 Unterabschnitt 1 Nr. 1.4 des Waffengesetzes vom 11. Oktober 2002 (BGBl. I S. 3970) in der jeweils geltenden Fassung,
- die Lagerung der in Absatz 1 bezeichneten Gegenstände in verschlossenen Zolllagern oder in Freizonen.
Geräte nach Satz 1 Nr. 2 können außerdem der Einzelbeschussprüfung unterzogen werden.
- nicht tragbare Selbstschussgeräte,
- bei anderen nicht tragbaren Geräten, in denen zum Antrieb in Hülsen untergebrachte Treibladungen verwendet werden und die für technische Zwecke bestimmt sind, nur die Auslösevorrichtungen und die Teile des Gerätes, die dem Druck der Pulvergase unmittelbar ausgesetzt sind.
§ 2 Beschusstechnische Begriffe 08
(1) Feuerwaffen im Sinne dieses Gesetzes sind(2) Höchstbeanspruchte Teile im Sinne dieses Gesetzes sind die Teile, die dem Gasdruck ausgesetzt sind. Dies sind insbesondere
- Schusswaffen, bei denen ein Geschoss mittels heißer Gase durch den Lauf getrieben wird, oder
- Geräte zum Abschießen von Munition oder hülsenlosen Treibladungen, bei denen kein Geschoss durch den Lauf getrieben wird.
...END OF QUOTE (My bold italics)
- der Lauf; dabei sind
- Austauschläufe Läufe für ein bestimmtes Waffenmodell oder -system, die ohne Nacharbeit ausgetauscht werden können,
- Wechselläufe Läufe, die für eine bestimmte Waffe zum Austausch des vorhandenen Laufs vorgefertigt sind und die noch eingepasst werden müssen,
- Einsteckläufe Läufe ohne eigenen Verschluss, die in die Läufe von Waffen größeren Kalibers eingesteckt werden können;
- der Verschluss als das unmittelbar das Patronen- oder Kartuschenlager oder den Lauf abschließende Teil;
- das Patronen- oder Kartuschenlager, wenn dieses nicht bereits Bestandteil des Laufs ist;
- bei Schusswaffen und Geräten nach § 1 Abs. 3, bei denen zum Antrieb ein entzündbares flüssiges oder gasförmiges Gemisch verwendet wird, die Verbrennungskammer und die Einrichtung zur Erzeugung des Gemisches;
- bei Schusswaffen mit anderem Antrieb und Geräten nach § 1 Abs. 3 die Antriebsvorrichtung, sofern sie fest mit der Schusswaffe oder dem Gerät verbunden ist;
- bei Kurzwaffen das Griffstück oder sonstige Waffenteile, soweit sie für die Aufnahme des Auslösemechanismus bestimmt sind;
- Trommeln für ein bestimmtes Revolvermodell, die ohne Nacharbeit gewechselt werden können (Wechseltrommeln)
I therefore suggest that you seriously doubt what your Luftwaffe friend told you. And that is putting it as politely as I can.
Legal requirements AND simple quality control/liability precautions would oblige the manufacturer to number the items listed above at the very latest when the weapon was assembled and approved, before it left the factory, regardless of what happened to it later.
It is conceivable that the frame number is somewhere that is not immediately obvious to the casual observer, but implausible that it has no number whatsoever.
However, it is not unknown for ignorant or criminal persons to spread incorrect hearsay stories to explain away a dubious or downright illegal item, relying on the fact that the hearer does not have the knowledge to expose them.
I humbly submit that I have hereby presented proper documented and traceable information, and anyone who still has doubts is free to write to the Bundeskriminalamt in Wiesbaden.
:wave:
Patrick
I have serial numbers. Social Security, military NRA,AMA, etc. I am a controlled unit. I like numbers on my guns, cars and bikes. helps me control them. gary:D
That's the way the bureacrats think.Quote:
Originally Posted by arado
Do not forget, the First commandment for any official is "Thou shalt cover thy arse, yea very well indeed".
The second being, of course "Thou shalt not admit any responsibility, ever".
So if you are a manufacturer, proof house or acceptance inspector, you make d..d sure that what you stamp with your personal stamp as being OK is numbered AND you keep a record of what you approved - a list of numbers of the approved parts. Which requires that the parts be numbered! So that if anything goes wrong with a part that is not in your list of numbers, you can say "Not my responsibility".
But failed/non-approved parts do get smuggled out of factories. And they have no numbers.
Guns get stolen and the number are erased.
End-of-run spares (also without numbers) are acquired when factories close down.
And all these bits are used to refurbish defective items, or made up into "new" guns and sold to that ever-trusting section of the gun-buying public who imagine that there really are caches of mint Lugers and K98ks being dug up on some other planet (because it can't be this one).
So for me, at least: no number on one of the parts listed above = not legitimate.
Oh, and BTW, I do have the definitive work on the marking of German small-arms from 1871 - 2000. No trace of any "this one's for the Luftwaffe, so we don't need to number it" exceptions.
To use a neat phrase coined by someone else
"In God we trust. All others must have supporting documentation."
:wave:
Patrick
I have no bureau to administer only my sovereign nation. garyQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
German PP series pistols made during the 1930's Did Not have serial numbers on the slides or barrels Period. That is just fact. Sorry to have to tell you that, but that is the way it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS57
Nothing to be sorry about. I have the book of rules, but in the real world there are likely to be some discrepancies between theory and practice. The point of my long post was that, as a buyer, you need to be very certain that you are dealing with a genuine exception and not an ingenious explanation for a fake or recycled scrap.
:wave:
Patrick
I would reckon those rules are Post WWII, as well. Hscs, Walther model 4s and 9s, PPK, Ortgies all don't have much numbered but the frame.
Current Austrian rules are pretty similar to the German, judging by my old (late '80s) Glock experience.