Lee Enfield Hammered Barrel

Well after asking Peter Laidler the question of Lee Enfields and hammered barrels I will take his suggestion to put it in a open forum.

Last night I was having coffee with two friends and one said out of the blue "Oh I'm getting a Lee Enfield that I think you will be interested in". He told me he will have a Lee Enfield with a hammered barrel which instanstly led to a discussion with another friend that was with us.

Now the other friend with us said they never made them however the guy getting one said years ago the local gun shop had one and he shot it. Apparently the gun shop owner wanted him to take it out to see how it shot and he said it was terrible, nice gun but not accurate at all.

Of course this led to much discussion and in the end nothing was resolved so guys how about help on this?? Did they make some Lee Enfields with hammered barrels?

Thanks

I remember being shown a "barrel machine" at Lithgow some 10 or so years ago that had been bought to do the Enfield barrels and was told it had also been used for the SLR and F88 barrels as they didn't have anything that did the job better. I remember also being told that it "hammered" the raw ingot into a barrel.

At least that is what I remember and it could easily be wrong.

Older thread on Enfield Barrels

Where did this 69 Enfield barrel come from?

Paul, Simon thanks for the infomation and I do hope more is posted. I really am anxious to see the gun and hopefully my friend will get his hands on it very soon.

For anyone interested, some notes on the process, Had another article which I posted sometime ago but cant find it,

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu...gedBarrels.pdf


Very similar but pics of the machine tool used,

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu...20No_%207).htm

There was a wartime hammered No4 barrel. I'll elaborate tomorrow when I have access to the papers

There was a two-piece Mk2 No4 barrel made during the war by Accles and Pollock using the hammered method. The actual design method was 'perfected' by Reginald Shepherd from the BSA Co - formerly of RSAF Enfield and the co-inventor of the Sten Gun. The method was also used to produce two-piece Vickers barrels, 2 groove Sten barrels and, they tell me, two groove Bren barrels too. But I'll believe the Bren barrel story if I ever see one. The barrels were FAR too thick to be hammered using the archaic methods of the era in my opinion and secondly, such a barrel was never mentioned in the EMER's.

The Mk2 rifle barrel always had a dull streaky finish and the nocks (?) form was shrunk on and retained with two tapered cross pins that were visible if you looked hard. The nocks form was also marked Mkll. These barrels were declared obsolete by the late 40's and I only ever saw/identified a couple. But, I did see a stack of NEW ones in the store at Ngaruawahia and I told Robbie about them but I don't think he ever scrapped them!

According to the REME Inspectorate memo sheets that we used to get from time to time, the Mk2 barrels were mainly used in Maltby production where they were close at hand to A&P production and they were alsoallocated for spare parts. As I said, these two-piece barrels were fairly easy to recognise due to their dull streaky finish and once you'd seen that, then the two pins around the nocks form and hairline mark of the shrunk on part was a give away. I don't know if one ever failed but the problem was that the barrel could work loose

Yes, fabricated hammered barrels. Haven't seen one for absolutely ages............ But they do exist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

I remember being shown a "barrel machine" at Lithgow some 10 or so years ago that had been bought to do the Enfield barrels and was told it had also been used for the SLR and F88 barrels as they didn't have anything that did the job better. I remember also being told that it "hammered" the raw ingot into a barrel.

At least that is what I remember and it could easily be wrong.

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The Blackmountain series of barrels made by Lithgow for the Omark model 44 were all hammer forged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

There was a two-piece Mk2 No4 barrel made during the war by Accles and Pollock using the hammered method. The actual design method was 'perfected' by Reginald Shepherd from the BSA Co - formerly of RSAF Enfield and the co-inventor of the Sten Gun. The method was also used to produce two-piece Vickers barrels, 2 groove Sten barrels and, they tell me, two groove Bren barrels too. But I'll believe the Bren barrel story if I ever see one. The barrels were FAR too thick to be hammered using the archaic methods of the era in my opinion and secondly, such a barrel was never mentioned in the EMER's.

The Mk2 rifle barrel always had a dull streaky finish and the nocks (?) form was shrunk on and retained with two tapered cross pins that were visible if you looked hard. The nocks form was also marked Mkll. These barrels were declared obsolete by the late 40's and I only ever saw/identified a couple. But, I did see a stack of NEW ones in the store at Ngaruawahia and I told Robbie about them but I don't think he ever scrapped them!

According to the REME Inspectorate memo sheets that we used to get from time to time, the Mk2 barrels were mainly used in Maltby production where they were close at hand to A&P production and they were alsoallocated for spare parts. As I said, these two-piece barrels were fairly easy to recognise due to their dull streaky finish and once you'd seen that, then the two pins around the nocks form and hairline mark of the shrunk on part was a give away. I don't know if one ever failed but the problem was that the barrel could work loose

Yes, fabricated hammered barrels. Haven't seen one for absolutely ages............ But they do exist

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Is it a MkII barrel or a MkIII ?

Wouldn't a MkII be a conventionally rifled 2 groove barrel ?

You're dead right LE. I just put that in there to see if you were all awake and to see who'd notice the deliberate mistake. The shrunk-on barrels were Mk3's. Obsolete as of 11/53

But just as an aside, does anyone have any written evidence that a two groover barrel was identified as a Mk2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You're dead right LE. I just put that in there to see if you were all awake and to see who'd notice the deliberate mistake. The shrunk-on barrels were Mk3's. Obsolete as of 11/53

But just as an aside, does anyone have any written evidence that a two groover barrel was identified as a Mk2

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Just the MkII stamping on the Knox form of a long branch, maltby, and Savage

Well the gun is a No4 and the person that is giving it to my friend told him he also has two spare hammered barrels. They are apparently both .303 and he said he had one for a .308 but sold it??

Anyone need a hammered .303 barrel?

I am sure my friend is going to sell me the No4 at a reasonable cost, he is a great guy and always has been good to me.

Lithgow (Thales) started hammer forging barrels in the later years of L1A1 production. The general specification for the finished product sayed the same as for the conventionally cut types. This included an allowance for hard-chrome lining.

In my experience, one could encounter L1A1 barrels in "raw", chromed chamber with unplated bore and fully chromed.

SMLE barrels were never hammer-forged at Lithgow, unless somebody sneaked a run in one night. Not that it it easy to "sneak" with something as incredibly nousy as a barrel forging machine.

The barrels for the F-88 (Steyr AUG) are definitely hammer-forged. Unless it has been "liberated" there used to be a very interesting barrel forging mandrel downstairs in the gatehouse/ museum building. It was for a polygonal bore barrel and was allegedly used for a short run of special F-88 barrels for one Australian Army Rifle Team. Allegedly they shot superbly but were frowned upon as "not in the spirit of things" and removed and destroyed.

Polygonal rifling is excellent for chroming as it has no internal or external sharp corners to cause problems with chrome deposition thickness.

The "Black Mountain" barrels were made on the plant used to make the hammer-forged L1A1 barrels and have a fine reputation for accuracy and durability.

One of the cool things about the F-88 barrel (and, I understand, the FN FNC barrel) is that the hammering also forms the chamber in the same pass as the rifling. I believe Ruger do this on their barrels as well.

One more question of course, does anyone have a picture of a original WWII Lee Enfield with a hammered barrel that they would post. Thanks to everyone as this has been a real learning lesson from all the "teachers" on this forum.