Enfield Trainers No 9s

Possibly this might be added to the above thread at some time.

I would like to add to my(our?) knowledge of the No 9 .22 trainer.

The most I have been able to find at present is that within Lee-Enfield Rifle No.9 for the Royal Navy, Ian Skennertons 'The Lee-Enfield' and Dennis Lewis/Robert Washburn's 'British .22RF Training Rifles'.

In summary:-

Few produced - 3000ish
Produced by 'Parker Hale' of Birmingham
Plus some produced to spec by 'others' - unofficial - few or no details available
'Parkerifled' sleeved barrels - by Alfred G Parker or Parker Hale?

Questions -
How many are left out there? - Fultons told me they might get one a year!
Of those still around - any of the original Royal Navy production?
Do any cadet forces have any?
Did anyone else sleeve barrels - I have one sleeved by A J Parker - I understood that AJ and AG Parker were not necessarily on the best of terms?

A number of other questions but this in the hope of getting a ball rolling.

Answers? Questions?

John

Just a quick look at the timeline, Athur Gray Parker died in 1915, A.G. Parker jnr. died in 1939, His son A.J Parker died in 1975.
The falling out between A.G and A.J was over the monopoly of the Hales, (cousins) in the firm. After A.J split from the firm it became PARKER HALE in 1936.
Now as the No.9's were converted by P H between 1956 and 1960, that effectively rules out the Parkers direct involvement.
The only reason the occasional Parkerifled A.G.P was on the crowns of some of these rifles was because the early patents of A.G were still current.
3000 is a small number,so a survival rate would be very low, that you have one marked A.J.P is even stranger and maybe even rarer.

Sme pics of my No9 Mk1.
Low serial number, sleeved barrell with Parker AGP marking, matching wood, german import marks
Where to find any navy markings?
Attachment 27784Attachment 27783Attachment 27785Attachment 27786

Frank
Have you looked at Lee-Enfield Rifle No.9 for the Royal Navy - the rifle shewn there is very close to yours and was apparently part of the Navy contract.
I don't know of any Unit markings.

There were still a dribble of N9's (and No7's) doing the rounds of the School Cadet Forces back in the 80's, alongside the old No8's but with the introduction of the CVadet SA80 rifles and then the .22" sub calibre kits, the 7's and 9's were back-loaded or disposed of.

Additionally, my sons school shooting rep told me that there were fewer and fewer military/schools shooting competitions that allowed these rifles as the specified rifle was the 'as issued' No8 rifle and even in open comps, the old No4 types couldn't compete with the modern Anschutz's. Once the Army took over the whole of the small arms repair schedule (beyond unit level) there were no spares and even less interest for these odd-balls.

There were a few No7's at Aldershot that had been cannibalised for spares (that I stripped/finished off and eventually wrote off). Once one of these rifles was condemned, the school/unit (some of the Sea Cadets and RAF Cadets had them too) would get a No8 as a replacement.

I used one in 1982 to earn my cadet Marksman badge. I remember being excited because it looked juts like a NO.4. Are the No.9s repeaters or single shot?

Single shot and a PITA to load that shot.
Extract drops the case into the empty magazine.

Nice looking rifle, what is the writing just visable in front of the identifiers in your photo?

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Originally Posted by newcastle

I used one in 1982 to earn my cadet Marksman badge. I remember being excited because it looked juts like a NO.4. Are the No.9s repeaters or single shot?

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The No7 was the "repeater" the No9 was just a single shot and as Gnr527 has pionted out with no loading platform they are a swine to load especially when you have hands the size of mine!!
I own a commercial "No9" made by AG Parker it is identicle to the service issue rifle including the rear sight "25 yard" graduation mark. The action is a reworked No4 MK1 the left side of the butt socket still bears M47 1943 with the original serial number haveing been ground away and replaced with AG 2553. It is all matching numbers including the forend and magazine though the latter has a number barred out with the new AG number below. I am hoping to get a look at a "genuine" No9 over the weekend and get some pictures of both of these rifles on the site as soon as I can.

I just checked two No.9's that I could get to and both are AGP marked on the barrel. One is a two digit number and the other in the 400 series...closer to 500 though.
The two digit is 56 dated and the 4-500 series is 57 dated.

Here are pictures of my No9 picked up a couple of years ago (along with 2 No8s with the same serial number) at the NZDF auction.

I found a load of these backsights in the armoury cupboard at my sons old school Cadet Force.

S/N of my No. 9 was A479, P-H'57 marked. Sold it this year. Also featured a AGP barrel.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I found a load of these backsights in the armoury cupboard at my sons old school Cadet Force.

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If the school are selling them I am in the market for one (it'll save me defacing the No 5 rearsight I've just bought).

On another note I made reference to a barrel I have assumed was sleeved by A J Parker. Its on a 'latterday' No 9 with some history which I am trying to trace down.
No marking on the barrel crown which has rounded finish but the knox is stamped with an AJP stamp. Would AGP, Parker-Hale and AJP all have had sleeving machinery and access to .22 liners (were they common?)? Or is it likely that one, or the other, sleeved barrels for all three?
There is reference in the above works to later copy No 9s by 'a well-known Birmingham gunsmith' and I am fairly sure that others have also been produced.
Any details known out there?

John

Presuming 3000ish is correct... I have A2964 1960... That is 36 rifles away.

All the No7 and 9 sights I had and saw were based on bog standard No4 Mk1 sights and not No5 spec sights. Some were marked 25YDS and others 25Yds/yds. The line on the sight leaf and slide aligned at a click below the 400 yard mark.

I put a couple on 'that' auction site together with a few of their matching P-H sights as that was a condition of certified/accountable/verifiable disposal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank LE

Sme pics of my No9 Mk1.
Low serial number, sleeved barrell with Parker AGP marking, matching wood, german import marks
Where to find any navy markings?
Attachment 27784Attachment 27783Attachment 27785Attachment 27786

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The naval marking you ask about is staring right at you. Notice the inscription on the receiver doesn't say "No9", it says "N.9". N in this instance stands for Naval, or so I believe.
If not, then feel free to pelt me with rotten cyber-veg.

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Originally Posted by harry mac

The naval marking you ask about is staring right at you. Notice the inscription on the receiver doesn't say "No9", it says "N.9". N in this instance stands for Naval, or so I believe.
If not, then feel free to pelt me with rotten cyber-veg.

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I have borrowed a "No9" from a friend to take some photos and realise that it does actually have No9 engraved on the action and not N 9 as shown on other rifles and also in Skennerton. The rifle looks right but is in "mint" condition with hardly a mark on it which a little worrying, the hand guard is not fluted and neither the forend nor the bolt carry a serial number. I think it could be a "clone" but before I break the good or bad news I would value other peoples opinions. Phots to follow.

I published the NoD specification of these rifles on this forum a year+ ago and they were definately N9 rifles and not No9's as this N9 was not part of the old Number system but a Naval nomenclature. They were N9's and anyone with a No9 probably has a what is commonly and politely called in Enforcer circles, a clone.

As I said, some of those No7's and N9's at my sons school had PH sights fitted but the standard 25YDS marked sights were on an oily shelf with a label attached, giving the original rifle number.

When small arms repairs for the Navy and RAF fell under the wing of the Army, these Navy and RAF Cadet training rifles would find their way through the big Field/Command workshops so while they weren't common, they were always around. I was reminded a week or so that a whole heap of N9 boltheads were made available (from Naval Ordnance stores in Gosport(?) to correct needy CHS in the N9's due to the fact that there was no spec laid down (or didn't appear to be available anywhere if it was known.........) so the UK MoD Army workshops in discussion with 14 MAG/REME Inspectorate just used the .22" No8 spec on the basis that they were all now using the same spec issue ammunition anyway.

Anyway, there's another few bits of useless info for any budding future author who wants to fill in a few gaps.

I might have mentioned it before, but the Navy were notorious for their lack of technical info regarding their small arms. They came - when it was avaiable - in BR's. When we used to overhaul Navy Lanchesters at the big Base Workshops on the Ayer Rajah Road in Singapore, we had very little technical info, even accuracy or zeroing data. Plenty of spares but their kit always came knee deep in rubbish paperwork

Just spoke to Brian at BDL re something else and he says that he's got two of the correct 25yd backsights for these No7's and N9 rifles. Don't all rush at once.................

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Just spoke to Brian at BDL re something else and he says that he's got two of the correct 25yd backsights for these No7's and N9 rifles. Don't all rush at once.................

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I thought the correct rear sight for the No7 rifle was the standard Mk1 Singer backsight set at its lowest position of 200yds, it is only the N9 rifle that has the 25YDS etched on the rearsight, or am I wrong?

Wrong I'm afraid. If a bog standard sight is fitted and set at it's lowest point it'll shoot too low and you won't get a foresight low enough to compensate.

A little RAF shooting handbook said, in as many words, that the rear sight was calibrated so that it would be possible to zero the rifle in all conditions while using the full range of foresight blades. I'll see if they've still got it. But the No7 definately has a standard 2 - 13 Mk1 backsight (NOT a No8 25-50-100 yard and 'H' sight) marked 25 Y or 25 YDS on the left side

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Wrong I'm afraid. If a bog standard sight is fitted and set at it's lowest point it'll shoot too low and you won't get a foresight low enough to compensate.

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I stand corrected Peter but I was quoting in part from Skennerton on the Rifle No7 Mk1 who states "Intended for use at the 25yd range, the standard Mk1 (Singer) backsight is set at the lowest position of 200yds; to compensate for this, the foresight has been slightly reduced in height." it does not mention a 25yd mark neither does the picture on page 507 show a 25yd mark. However the N9 Mk1 rifle is definitely specified with a rearsight marked with "25YDS"

I've just read the old RAF EMER you refer to Buccaneer and blow me down......., you're right! I mean exactly right in what you say....., BUT! So I took an N9 onto the 25m indoor range over lunch time and at the lowest range, it does shoot too low. That would seem to confirm that the No7 sight does indeed have a 25yard marker on the left side.

AIncidentally, the RAF EMER also says that some No7's have solid new made barrels (my BS1740 does.....) and some, made from new bodies, are manufactured without the original No4 ejector screw hole. Interesting. Does anyone out there have a 'new build' rifle without the ejector screw hole?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

......Incidentally, the RAF EMER also says that some No7's have solid new made barrels (my BS1740 does.....) and some, made from new bodies, are manufactured without the original No4 ejector screw hole. Interesting. Does anyone out there have a 'new build' rifle without the ejector screw hole?

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BS1892 with solid barrel & original No4 ejector 'hole'

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00321-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00303-1.jpg

I owned only one of the No9s serial number A2799. Had a P-H flip up rear sight with windage adjustments. I am trying to track the gun down, but I was told the owner died.