problem with certain garand enbloc clips

I'm not sure if this is the thread catagory to use, but:... My (very) left-handed brother graciously gave me his M-1 Garand (.30-06) last year, when I started shooting again after decades away from the sport. A friend of his gave me a few enbloc clips for the rifle, which work flawlessly. I purched eleven additional clips from a major shooting-supply warehouse. When I tried them out, they were "powdery", almost like they were spray painted, rather than parkerized. Only 3 worked well, while the rest were too tight: they damaged brass when loading, tended to jamb when charging the gun, and could cause the last two rounds to bind when auto-chambering.

Now, I see that another company is having a sale on enbloc clips. They list the specific manufacturer as Aggressive Engineering Corp, and the price looks reasonable. I seek someone who might be familiar with relative quality/suitabiliy of this manufacturer. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
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Dexter

I also had problems when I first started collecting and shooting Garands, the only en blocs you should use would in my opinion be USGI. Even the ammunition bought through CMP has occasional en bloc problems, these are usually European manufacture that the Greeks contracted for.

To give a better answer I think it would help if you described what initials are present in the circular stamping of the rear outside of the en bloc. Here is a link that may help you identify the manufacturer.
Enbloc Stampings

As for the rough texture of the en bloc, use a scotch brite pad or steel wool to polish it smooth, I always check my en blocs and load each one to ensure a smooth performance at the range, even the ones packed in a bandolier get unloaded, inspected, touched up, then replaced for use.

I foolishly bought a box of 20 en blocs from CTD several years ago, the only redeeming value I received was the practice involving about every malfunction an en bloc could cause. Take my advice and use GI en blocs, and polish them up a bit and you shouldn't have a problem.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN0624-1.jpg

There was a thread on this not too long ago. Some of the Greek clips have heavy, almost pebbly parkerizing. Hit them with a crocus cloth and knock it down. That'll help.

You know that enbloc that CMP gives with every Garand they sell, guess who makes them?
Aggressive Engineering Corp

Thanks for the info Orlando. Actually, I never bought anything from CMP. However, the other clips I purchased were sold as "U.S. made", but show no maker's mark on the bottom. And I really don't think they're Springfield, as some unmarked clips are supposed to be. I think I'll go ahead and try a small order of the "Aggressive", and see how they work. I'll keep fingers crossed and report back how they work.

Regards,

Dexter

I have a bunch of the Aggressive Engineering clips & have had no problems with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by budmant

I have a bunch of the Aggressive Engineering clips & have had no problems with them.

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Me too. never a problem with them so far.

(This is my first post on this forum so hope that I don't mess up.)

Hello Dexter;

I may have some useful information for you within a week-or-two.

(background)

Although I purchased my Garand back in late spring (2011) it was only during the Thanksgiving holidays (just a week ago now) that I was down on a cousin's ranch in central Texas and was able to shoot it. (I live in the Dallas area and there is no suitable location nearby to fire it as far as I can tell.)

The situation I ran into (which will be of interest to you) is that I had some difficulty loading the Enbloc clips into my Garand depending on what ammunition I was using.

Enbloc Clips - mfg'd by Agressive Engineering (marked on the bottom ' AEC ' with a ' 3 ' underneath)

Ammo
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' American Eagle - For M1 Garand' (mfg by Federal Cartridge) 150 grain FMJ

' PPU Ammunition ' (mfg in Serbia - U.S. importer is TR&Z USA Trading Company) 150 grain FMJ
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Both ammunition types are spec'd to be suitable for use in the Garand with the American Eagle explicitly stating this on the package and for the PPU ammunition I had an e-mail exchange back in May (2011) with TR&Z USA Trading Company (the PPU importer) in which they confirmed that their 150 gain FMJ .30-06 ammunition is "M2 ball specifically producted for M1 rifles".

The ' problem ' (pretty-much solved with an on-site 'fix') was that when I was loading the PPU ammunition (the American Eagle ammo loaded without any problem) into the Enbloc clip the 8th (and final) round was EXTREMELY difficult to slide into the clip and once done the clip essentially jammed (it was spread open too wide) when I tried to insert it into my Garand.

My 'on-site fix' was to load only 7 rounds of the PPU cartridges into the Enbloc clip and this resulted in the clip's 'lips' (how far they spread open when ammo is loaded) being not so far apart as with 8 rounds. The Enbloc clip's metal 'lips' still exterted sufficient pressure on the cartridges to hold them in place (taking care not to jostle them) and then the clip slid easily down into my Garland.

Today (back home) I've made a few measurements with my little manual micrometer and determined that the width of the PPU cases is very slightly greater than the American Eagle cases. This additional width (of the PPU cases) causes the Enbloc clips to spread open a little wider than when loading American Eagle ammunition. Although each PPU case is only slightly wider than the American Eagle ammo when you get 8 cartridges stagger-loaded into the Enbloc clip the additional widths add-up and cause the clip to have spread open wider by an appreciable amount.

I then phoned TR&Z USA Trading Company (the PPU importer) today and they assured me that my measurement (of their ammunition's case width) was within .30-06 specifications and they pointed-the-finger at the Enbloc clip manufacturer (TR&Z did not recognize the ' AEC ' clip manufacturer ID and I later found who they were via a Web search).

Then I phoned Aggressive Engineering (finding them via a Web search) and was assured that they build the Enbloc clips for the commercial market (I got mine through ' Cheaper-Than-Dirt ') to the same specs as when they were making them for the military market.

At that point (with the ammo manufacturer saying the problem wasn't their fault and the Enbloc clip manufacturer saying that it wasn't their fault) I pulled out my copy of the M1 Garand drawings put together by Eric Nicolaus but after about a half hour had not found a relevant drawing that showed the Enbloc clip dimensions so I went to Eric's Web Site, got his phone number, and called him.

Eric thought at first that his compendium of M1 Garland drawings had the Enbloc clip drawings but then (thinking out loud) said that he realized that he had left it out. Eric then (very gratiously) volunteered to mail me a copy of the Enbloc clip drawing only asking that I keep him informed what I learn. The drawing will probably arrive in the mail next week.

So that's my story on Enbloc clip width when using PPU ammunition - with more-to-follow (probably) next week once I've gotten a look at the specs for the clip.

- Paul

Nothing wrong with Agressive Engineering enblocs, unless you got a bad one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orlando

Nothing wrong with Agressive Engineering enblocs, unless you got a bad one.

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I've seen no evidence of a variation between the 'AEC' Encloc clips that I have. (The ' American Eagle ' ammunition all loads into the clips just fine and the ' PPU ' ammunition needs to be reduced to 7 cartridges loaded for there not to be a problem.)

I'm wondering now if .30-06 ammunition for the M1 Garand might not have tighter dimensional tolerances than general .30-06 ammo ? (I'm not talking about the Garand needing FMJ ammunition for proper feed action but instead thinking about case dimensions.)

What if the gentleman at TR&Z USA Trading Company (the USA importer of PPU ammunition) is correct and their .30-06 150 grain FMJ case dimensions ARE within general .30-06 specifications ? Would that emply that the American Eagle Garand ammuntion (8 rounds load into the Enbloc clip perfectly) is intentionally made with slightly smaller case dimensions than is allowed by the basic .30-06 specifications ?

- Paul

Paul , look close at the extractor cut on the cases. See if the AE is "old school " 30-06 and the PPU "new school " .308 specs.
Chris

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

Paul , look close at the extractor cut on the cases. See if the AE is "old school " 30-06 and the PPU "new school " .308 specs.
Chris

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Chris;

It appears that the PPU .30-06 brass dimensions, around the base, are identical with .308 dimensions.

I confess that your comment caught me unawares so I looked at several references and pretty-much decided that there may have been a slight redimensioning of the .30-06 brass (to the tune of 2 or 3 10-thousandth's of an inch) just above the extractor groove.

The earliest .30-06 dimensional reference that I'm aware that I have is in my copy of Hatcher's Notes and the drawing there does not appear to show what I thought would have been clearly needed dimentions .... it does not seem to give the diameter of the brass case just above the extractor groove ..... though it may be that my ability to read an older style drafting format (I got training on such in the early 1970s) is not up-to-snuff.

- Paul

I have recently purchased M-1 clips from Fulton Armory and they have worked flawlessly in my M-1. I am pretty sure they are orginal USGI.

Found it . Look at post 5.
M1 garand CMP HXP Ammuniton clip problems
Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emmagee1917

Found it . Look at post 5.
M1 garand CMP HXP Ammuniton clip problems
Chris

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Forgive me for being so obtuse but I don't see the relevance.

The issue (if we're both chasing the same thing) is that there ' is/may be ' a variance in the diameter of different manufacturers .30-06 brass cases.

Just this afternoon I received a copy of the Engineering drawing (dwg 6528288; rev K) for the Garand's En Bloc clip from Eric Nicolaus (he put together a book of M1 Garand drawings) but so far I have not been able to put together a workable understanding of the allowable width of a loaded clip (as the .30-06 cartridges are put into the clip its effective width increases).

The (apparent) problem I ran into last week, while firing my Garand on a cousin's ranchland in central Texas, was that the clips (newly purchased Aggressive Engineering ones) jammed if I attempted to load the clip in my Garand IF using Prvi Partizen (PPU) .30-06 150g FMJ ammunition BUT I had NO PROBLEM if using American Eagle (by Federal) M1 Garand ammunition. A simple measurement with a manual micrometer showed the PPU brass cases were ever-so-slightly wider in diameter than the American Eagle cases.

The importer of PPU ammo here in the U.S. (TR&Z USA Trading Company) says their ammunition (the 150g FMJ .30-06) is fully compliant with industry specs and Aggressive Engineering says that their En Bloc clips are made the same as for the military (indeed I saw that AEC is listed on the En Block clip drawing received today).

So we seem to have a conundrum ..... both manufacturers say that the problem isn't theirs.

Is it with my M1 Garand ? Well that might be a possibility but then there is also the matter that trying to fully load an AEC En Bloc clip with PPU ammunition is virtually impossible - that final 8th round just doesn't fit .... the clip is not wide enough at its base.

Looking at the En Bloc clip drawing this afternoon got me to thinking that there is probably (or was some time in the past) a composite drawing that shows the En Bloc clip when loaded with eight .30-06 cartridges.

The drawings in the book Eric publishes, and the drawing received from him this afternoon, are manufacturing drawings, intended to convey to a factory's Engineers what they are to build. What we need is more of a systems-level series of drawings that show how the overall device (in this instance the M1 Garand Rifle) works when all the parts are assembled.

If there is such a drawing(s) I'm not familiar with it. (sigh)

- Paul

1919A4 Machineguns were made originaly in 30-06 . We gave / sold a bunch to Isreal who converted many to 7.62 Nato. Part of the conversion was milling out a bigger slot in the bolt's face to take the Nato spec rim as the 30-06 spec slot was too narrow for reliable feeding.
So what ?
On the back inside of the enblock are left / right vertical ribs that are supposed to fit down into the extractor grooves . If they don't fit the grooves , they will not fit down all the way , jaming on them. If they jam , the back of the enbloc will be bulged out throwing everything out of whack.
Don't know if it's your problem.....all 15,000 of my rounds were GI 30-06 spec and are in USGI clips I've had for over 30 years.....but other people have had problems with this.
Chris

Checking the PPU website you will find 30.06 Springfield listed under Sport & Hunting, they also have 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 listed under Military. Since this ammunition is listed and marketed two ways what may be occurring is the Sport/Hunting 30.06 Springfield is manufactured using a shell that can be utilized for the (8) different types of bullet weight/type as well as the possibility they use a more commercial powder charge.

The Military 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 is undoubtedly made by contract, over-runs will be bought up and sold as they occur, I have not seen any PPU M2 Ball ammo, just the previously mentioned Springfield. The agent for the Importer may or may not have been properly informed when he responded to the question, the fact that the 30.06 Springfield will not fit (8) rounds indicates a problem that is not widely reported with any other commercial ammo used in a Garand with en bloc clips.

Possibly some shooters who use commercial ammo not designed as compatible with M2 in their Garands may shed some additional light on this subject. I've never had a problem with PPU and I've used it in semi-auto handguns as well as my AR, Sig 556 (both 556) and 1918A3 ( 30.06 Springfield). With a sufficient supply of surplus M2 I haven't felt the need to use commercial ammo in my Garands, save for a few hundred Hornady Match rounds.

" .... I have not seen any PPU M2 Ball ammo ....

That is an interesting comment and may well cover the issue that I need to pursue - to understand what is happening when I load PPU (150g FMJ) .30-06 ammunition into my Aggressive Engineering ('AEC') En Bloc clips (and then to try and load that into my Garand).

In May of this year (2011) I had an e-mail exchange with TR&Z USA Trading (the importers of PPU ammunition into the U.S.) in which they said that their 150g FMJ .30-06 ammunition was M2 Ball compliant.

Having fired my Garand a couple of weeks ago on my cousin's ranch in central Texas I am pleased to report that the actual process of shooting the rifle with both the American Eagle (a Federal brand) and the PPU ammunition went perfectly (once I reduced the loading of the PPU ammunition in the En Bloc clip from 8 rounds down to 7). It would appear that the gas pressure curve of both ammunitions is sufficiently close to that produced by GI ammunition so as to work without-a-hitch in the Garand's mechanism.

I think that it may be possible for us to still question, however, how precisely the PPU's brass case dimensions follow that of GI issue ammunition (not forgetting that the American Eagle ammunition loaded all 8 rounds in the En Bloc clip flawlessly).

It seems to me that I need to make a dedicated effort to understand both the brass case dimensions of GI .30-06 ammunition and also to continue the work to understand the allowable dimensional limits of a (fully) loaded En Bloc clip.

From a strictly dollars-and-cents standpoint becoming comfortable using PPU ammunition in my Garand is strongly indicated as it is several dollars less expensive (per box of 20 cartridges) than the American Eagle ammunition.

- Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarge1998

Checking the PPU website you will find 30.06 Springfield listed under Sport & Hunting, they also have 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 listed under Military. Since this ammunition is listed and marketed two ways what may be occurring is the Sport/Hunting 30.06 Springfield is manufactured using a shell that can be utilized for the (8) different types of bullet weight/type as well as the possibility they use a more commercial powder charge.

The Military 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 is undoubtedly made by contract, over-runs will be bought up and sold as they occur, I have not seen any PPU M2 Ball ammo, just the previously mentioned Springfield. The agent for the Importer may or may not have been properly informed when he responded to the question, the fact that the 30.06 Springfield will not fit (8) rounds indicates a problem that is not widely reported with any other commercial ammo used in a Garand with en bloc clips.

Possibly some shooters who use commercial ammo not designed as compatible with M2 in their Garands may shed some additional light on this subject. I've never had a problem with PPU and I've used it in semi-auto handguns as well as my AR, Sig 556 (both 556) and 1918A3 ( 30.06 Springfield). With a sufficient supply of surplus M2 I haven't felt the need to use commercial ammo in my Garands, save for a few hundred Hornady Match rounds.

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Although the PPU Web site in Serbia shows both military & commercial FMJ .30-06 listings the TR&Z USA Trading Company (the U.S.A. importers of PPU ammunition) only list a single FMJ .30-06 cartridge (their TRZ Load No. 3.4).

When I corresponded with TR&Z (06 May 2011) I was careful to denote that I was asking about their Load No. 3.4.

In reply Tom Vujovic, with TR&Z, said "We make this round as an M2 ball specially produced for M1 rifles."

As best I can tell this means that TR&Z confirms that the 150g FMJ .30-06 PPU ammunition being sold in the U.S. is suitable for use in M1 Garands.

- Paul

Maybe one of the experienced reloaders can reply if 50 meters a second is a powder that is too fast for an M1? PPU lists the 150 grain FMJ at 885 meters per second, American Eagle M1 ammo is listed as 2740 fps. I'm not really good at math but converting feet to meter = 835.152 for the American Eagle, which is loaded for the M1. PPU commercial which we are talking about at 885 mps is 164 fps faster than recommended M1 load.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarge1998

....... PPU commercial which we are talking about at 885 mps is 164 fps faster than recommended M1 load.

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I could (easily) be wrong but suspect that slight variations in bullet muzzle velocity isn't as big a consideration (for the gas operated Garand) as is the pressure curve of the powder burn.

(in the 'food-for-thought' category)

If we took a M1 Garand and removed the gas plug, so that all the gases exited out-the-front and did not actuate the piston, then we would have temporarily converted the rifle to a manually operated bolt action. In this situation significantly higher bullet muzzle velocity would likely eventually lead to reduced barrel life but I think that's all. 164 fps is less than 10 percent greater than typical military loading so I would not expect there to be a significant difference.

Now the matter of the gas pressure curve ..... that is something that I don't believe we have any way of actually measuring short of instrumenting a barrel with a bank of piezo-electric stress transducers (I just checked and nope - don't have any in my junk box).

I think (boy I'm really going-out-on-a-limb a lot in this conversation) that it would be relatively safe to equip a Garand with one of the 'variable-leakage' (my name for 'em) plugs that are available on-the-market and adjust it so that there is just enough pressure to allow the rifle to cycle properly (eject the spent cartridge and load the next).

Hmmm .....I wonder if it would be feasable to put a small magnet on the operating rod within the Garand and have a small coil to sense the induced Voltage as the mechanism cycles ? We could compare the Voltage curve (I believe proportional to ds/dt but I'd better think about this) of a 'reference round' (try to get a 'real-GI round') and then measure the curve generated when firing a Prvi Partizen round (and an American Eagle for good-measure). As long as the curves were roughly the same as that produced by the 'reference round' then we could feel confident that the Garand's mechanism wasn't being unduely-exercised by the PPU rounds.

- Paul