Reloading metallic cartridges

Have just started my BP career and have only just received my BP licence. I´ve got cases for my Mauser `71 and the Werder Cavalry carbine (11.15x60 & and 11.5x35) and use .446, 264 grain lead bullets for both.

Filling the cases with powder for the Werder Carbine is a problem as the amount has to be very precise, combined with the cardboard checks and the grease behind the bullet. I haven´t been able to load according to the published COAL, as the back of the case then extends preventing the trapdoor from coming up. So I have to use less powder than recommended.Filling the case with only a few grains more increases the COAL and it then protrudes and cannot be entirely chambered.

I´ve ordered a BP powder measure. Hope I´m not doing anything wrong.

The Werder is definitely more fun to shoot. Both shoot accurately, but both have sights that cannot be brought down nearly enough for 100 metres (have to tack another target below the one I hit).

Any better ideas on loading the metallic cases?

Patrick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Any better ideas on loading the metallic cases?

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Yes, but you'll have to wait for a day or two so that I can make some pics. Basically, reloading for BPCRs is a doddle. That sweeping statement requires some justification, so hey ho, it's off to the reloading station a.k.a. cellar to establish some proof.

:wave:
Patrick

Thanks (again) Patrick. Have to wait for the powder dispenser anyway. Wonder why my Werder´s chambered shorter than spec?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Wonder why my Werder´s chambered shorter than spec?

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If you could post the measurements, it might be possible to offer an explanation!

Patrick

I doubt your chamber is shorter than spec, but I'd bet that the capacity of the case you are using is less than original. In my carbine I use Norma 7.62x54 cases cut to length and expanded to size...then FLS in the proper die. The case doesn't hold as much as the original and like you, I'm using my supply of .446 for both. However, my .446 bullets have a longer bearing surface than the original Werndl bullet, meaning that it must be seated deeper to allow it to chamber without hitting the rifling. Put the smaller capacity case together with a bullet that needs to be seated a tad deeper than original and you have a noticable lower powder capacity. That said, this cartridge is really under powered for anything other than punching paper.....or maybe a varmint up real close. As such, I load the maximum powder I can with light compression and still get the cartridge to chamber and go on my merry way. I don't shoot it enough to warrant getting a mold for a period correct bullet, which would allow a longer OAL and more powder capacity. As is it punches paper just fine.

Did the Werder cartridge use a compressed powder load? Maybe that's the answer?

No ... the problem was that I´d been using a bullet that was too stubby. A longer, more elongated bullet entered as far as the rifling and the COAL is now the standard 50mm. AND .. I´ve now got a BP powder dispenser and can reproduce an exact load that allows the bullet to be seated to the correct depth every time. I got every round within a 10 inch square at 50 metres today at the range (which is a great improvement) but have to aim at a target hung 10 inches below it. So will now take the short Werder over to the 100 metre range. If the sights are then still much too high, I´ll experiment with a lower powder charge and fill up the case with semolina. I like the Werder much more than the Mauser 71 although it´s such a nice looking carbine ... But still ... think it´s for the chop.

PS

Don´t forget to wear a poppy

Wait for the BP powder dispenser, it is a completely different way to work with that thing. And you have a lot of work to do to find the right load datas for your Werder, especially for yours, the bullet to buy or to cast, and how to shoot. I mean to clean after every single shot with soap water or any other way. Have luck to find it, it is fun!

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Originally Posted by villiers

But still ... think it´s for the chop.

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That sounds ominous Patrick! Do you mean that you are going to carve up that antique!!!!! Surely not. If you do want to bin it, well I have a very nice bin, so please drop me a private line before you do something irreversible!

:wave:Patrick

P.S: I wanted to write an illustrated article on BPCR reloading, but the digital camera is dying (the pictures are rapidly becoming grainier and grainer). BTW, does anyone know what could be causing this?

Patrick, here is an extract from the lengthy thread on refurbishing an Argentine Rolling Block. I suggest you look this up and read through from about page 13 onwards, as it tells you everything you need to know to make a plausible first load for your Werder carbine.

.....First of all, here is a view of the equipment being used for the “desktop” part of this activity (i.e. not including the reloading press and dies). I am using an un-lubricated bullet for this, for illustration purposes.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....137945&thumb=1

The powder is Swiss No. 4 (1.5fg). No. 3 (2fg) would also be OK, but No. 2 (3fg) is a bit too fast for the long barrel of a military Rolling Block. It may produce too much pressure too early, thus unnecessarily straining the action.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....137898&thumb=1

The grains look remarkably like model coal as used on HO model railroads. This is because they are indeed given a final coat of graphite during manufacture, to prevent electrostatic charge building up on the powder - a precaution that has been taken by powder manufacturers since way back in the 19th century.

How are we going to the get right quantity of powder into the case?

Well, you can buy a commercial powder dispenser, but they perform poorly with such large grains. You can, with a bit of practice, get loads with a spread of 0.4 grains by using the following simple devices from the “pack-rat” school of engineering.

This is a measure for 60.5 grains of Swiss No. 2.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....137911&thumb=1

And this is a measure for 67.4 grains of No. 2.

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....137935&thumb=1

These powder measures are actually made from old cases, with a brass wire soldered on as a handle. The 60.5 measure is a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser case, and the 67.4 measure is an 8x57IS case. So a few minutes pack-ratting at the range will provide you with a wide spectrum of potential powder measures! ....

Please refer to the original thread for the complete story.

For the Werder carbine case, you will not need any filler, but you will need a grease wad beneath the bullet.
1) Establish the seating depth for maximum COAL with the bullet of your choice (I suggest about 320-340 gns)
2) Reduce that by about 1mm, to make sure that the bullet is still clear of the lands in a fouled bore.
3) Reduce by another 3mm to allow for about 0.25cc of grease and an overpowder wad.
4) Establish the quantity of powder that fills the case to this reduced level.
5) Set your powder measure accordingly, and pour a load into a primed case.
6) Tap the case sharply on the bench, two or three times, to shake down the powder. Hold your finger over the end of the case while doing this!
7) Set the wad. One wad if you are using beer mats. Two if you are using milk cartons.
8) Dispense 0.25cc of grease from the syringe into the case.
9) Set the bullet to the established depth. It is best if the test cartridge is made up without being resized, so that the bullet is a sliding fit. That way, you can feel if the bullet is sitting on the grease. As the bullet is itself greased (in the grooves) there really is no point in having a card wad between the grease wad and the bullet, as all it is going to do is stick to the base of the bullet and, maybe, upset its flight as it emerges from the muzzle.

The first round of cartridges will fire-form the cases to fit your rifle. Do not expect great accuracy from them. Repeat the loading sequence above, adjusting the powder/grease quantites to suit the slightly expanded case. The ideal situation is a bullet that is a firm finger-thumb push fit into a cartridge case that is only neck-sized, if even that, sitting on a powder quantity that is firm (not rattling around) but not compressed. If you want to reduce the load a bit, increase the grease to compensate. Avoid filler, it has a scouring effect.

:wave:
Patrick

Yes, thanks again Patrick!

Dunno what I´d have done without help from the forum in getting started with BP.

No ... not that kind of chop for the `71. But think it´ll have to go as I can´t be serious about two BP rifles at the same time and there´s not that much space in the safe for both. Pity, `cos the Mauser is in such good condition and so nicely made. The Werder seems to be more accurate.

Patrick

Thanks Patrick for this useful manual! Can you tell me which influence on the loads will Mozart´s concert have?:)

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Originally Posted by gunner

Can you tell me which influence on the loads will Mozart´s concert have?

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Gunner, assuming you mean a concerto, you need to specify which one. Now there are people who will tell you that playing Mozart in the stables soothes the horses and increases the milk yield from cows. Some say that plants respond favorably to the right kind of music. And, of course playing Mozart to a pregnant woman is supposed to have a positive effect on the foetus. If there is anything in all this, then it is the result of creating a melodious, unstressed atmosphere.

Now before monitors pull this as being off-topic, I would like to point out that a relaxed, unstressed frame of mind is indeed beneficial when target-shooting. It might be advantageous to play something like the slow movement of Piano Concerto No. 23 (K488) through your ear-protection headphones next time you are at the range. It will not affect the load directly, but it might help you to shoot more accurately with that load!

:wave:
Patrick

Thank you for this Patrick! Sorry for going a little OT. I found it interesting to see the Concerto notes at your desk. And for the shooting, i use Gunny Hathcocks method: make yourself sitting in a bubble and concentrate only on the reticle( or the ironsights).

Woodwind instruments, especially the clarinet, were my starting point in the understanding of precision woodworking, maturing of wood, long-term stability etc. The bore of a first-class instrument (such as my Buffet-Crampon) is by no means a simple cylinder, but a subtle shape that is achieved with an array of very precise reamers. And the bore on a good wind instrument shines like an old rifle barrel.

Having learnt something about what you can and should do to achieve precision in wood, it makes one cry to read some of the brutal methods advocated to "clean up" old rifle stocks.

:wave:
Patrick

Indeed Patrick! Some haven´t the abilities to work out the stocks correct and others have to less patience. I like more the refurbing to a good condition without removing the traces of its history, except cracks and therefore i use the same methods like the armourers used in the time the rifle was in service use. I hate it to sand down the wood and if some wish to have it, i let the aeras with markings and stamps untouched. I hate it to steal their history.

BTW isn´t it better to clean the bore after any single shot with a wet patch? We tried out a method where to blowing through a hose and clean after the third shot, but it lost the accuracy so that we´re now cleaning again after any single shot. The rifle we´ve done this was a Sharps, maybe it is a bit different in use to a Werder.

Patrick & Gunner, I find Mozart a tad too frivolous. Am more a J.S. Bach type. Have found that just one draw with a felt tip and a drop of bore cleaner works wonders on the Werder.

PS

For Gunner: There´s a bloke born in Frankfurt/Oder called (of all things) Piefke who composed for Frederick the Great. Admire him greatly.

You´re talking about Johann Gottfried Piefke the Composer of some great military marches like Preußens Gloria and the Königgraetzer Marsch? Not bad this guy!

One draw after any single shot or?

That´s Piefke ... man of genius (but then Ludwig van B wrote the York`sche Marsch)

gUYS,

I'm more of a blues and jazz person, though I do love opera.

I load BP for my 45-70 barreled No. 2 rolling block -originally an Argy in .43 Spanish, then my dad's .44 mag carbine ... the barrel is a semi-whitworth pattern, almost a hexGONAL bore with very deep grooves, high, narrow lands and a slow twist. It seems quite accurATe in the field. I never clean between shots, just when the shooting is over. Fire a fouling shot, then blast away. I think that was probably how those old military rifles were meant to be shot.

I've found that to get a full 70 gr. charge plus a grease wad into the case, I have to compress the powder. I do this with a bullet seating die. It seems to work OK. I use a bench-mounted powder measure rather than a dip measure and get very consistent velocities, at least the one time I got my hands on a chronograph.

Well, good luck to you. May a blue, mephitic cloud of satan's farts rise over the fair land of Germany!

jn

Agree that the bench dispenser also gives me more assurance in getting consistent results filling metal cartridges. And also using a die and press for seating. The Mauser `71 bullets are a perfectly tight fit after I´ve neck sized the cases. But bullets in the Werder cases are a bit loose and I´m experimenting with a .44 taper crimp.

I use just a drop of Bore shine on a felt cleaning tip after every few rounds but only `cos that´s what I´d been told to do. Can´t see that it does that much good. And just put a dab of grease in behind the bullet with the point of a knife (is it really necessary?). The Swiss powder you get here seems to be almost as clean as nitro.

Main prob. is that the sights on both are far too high which spoils the fun of shooting at 100 metres. Neither are all that accurate at 300. The Werder´s not much bigger than a long pistol and I can´t get more than 30 grains of BP into the small cartridge.

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Well, good luck to you. May a blue, mephitic cloud of satan's farts rise over the fair land of Germany!

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A great one Jon!:lol::lol:

Patrick, i never added a dap of grease behind the bullet. Only thing behind the bullet is a piece of a Tetra-pak cardboard. Oooh and the BP!

My working principles in brief:
a) For military rifle competitions, where you are not allowed to clean between shots, grease behind the bullet is a must, to keep the fouling soft.
b) How hard the fouling will be, depends on the powder grain size. Swiss No. 2 (for the Sharps) forms noticeably harder residues in the bore than No. 4.
c) Shooting the Sharps without a powder wad and without cleaning resulted in typically 1st shot OK, 2nd a tad lower, and the 3rd dropping down to the edge of the black. So I either have to clean well after each shot or have a good lube wad, as for the military BPCRs.
d) I get the most accurate results in the Sharps by using both methods - the lube wad AND cleaning between shots, using a blow tube to provide moisture, together with a special cleaner.
e) The cleaner is 3 x VFG cal. 45 felt cylinders, one behind the other, on a stainless steel screw. This assembly is pushed through from the breech end by a nylon rod (it has to be a bit flexible to clear the base of the folded-down Dr Goodwin diopter).
f) So I can clean and load lying down, without having to jump up and down the whole time. A blessing if your spine is knackered.

The best result to date with the Sharps, at 300 meters, 133/150 incl. 4 Xs. In competition, not in practice. It works.

:wave:
Patrick

Do it mostly the same way except the lube wad. But for the reason that we never shot at a military competition is it not so important. Cleaning the Sharps after any single shot is important and i have to do it better! 133/150.....my best was only 127/150 at the Philippsburg Range!:ugh:

Attachment 28236So ... here´s the result of the first stage of experimenting with the Werder M68 kurz 11.5x35R short cavalry carbine:
I could only get hold of Swiss No. 3 BP and can get just under 30 grains in the case. Used .45 thin cork pads under Johannsen Classic .440 394grs bullets. Have to take special care not exceed 50mm COAL. Over 51mm, the the base of the cartridge protrudes from the chamber and the trapdoor will not close. The cases are taper crimped using a disassembled .44 die. Cases have been neck sized twice and will probably last forever.

The cav. carbine is only 80cm (approx. 31.5 inches) long, so is (like me) hardly likely to be a match winner, but is accurate enough. The spent lead bullet in the pic went through two ribs of a household steel radiator. Next step is to take some Vo measurements.

It is definitely a very reliable mechanism. After ten rounds, the Swiss powder did not show much fouling or residue. The action is truly `Blitz´ and, with a bit of practice, high speed performance can be spectacular. For cleaning, the action (and, if deemed necessary, the barrel) is removed, and this only take a few minutes. I dis- and re-assembled every last bit in under 15 minutes.

Thanks for the pic and info Patrick.
I am both amused and pleased to see that you are quickly getting the knack of BPCR manufacture for wierd chamberings - creative use of dies intended for other calibers!

My first cartridges for the Grenzaufseher Gewehr (11,2x37,5R) looked rather like those you have made for the Werder - too much lead for the case. I think that a bullet of about 300-320 gns would be better suited, allowing a larger powder charge (somewhere around 35-38 gns) and a considerably higher Vo/flatter trajectory. The combination you have at present will probably produce a Vo around 200-250 meters/sec. I am eager to see what you measure.

:wave:
Patrick

Right! The lead does take up too much space. Suppose the next step will have to be melting my own bullets. Am still somewhat apprehensive about taking it to the local Wannsee 100 metre range as there´s a stiff penalty for damaging the overhead pulley system and I don´t really know how high the trajectory might go.

Have now gained some sympathy for the poor Frogs on the receiving end of that heavy lump of lead in 1871/2 and am trying to find a pic of a Werder ammo pouch to find out how many rounds were issued.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Used .45 thin cork pads under Johannsen Classic .440 394grs bullets.

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I am looking at the Johannsen catalog right now. Page 167 (more or less, depending on which edition you have available).
If those bullets are the Best.-Nr. BGO229, then I suggest you try a pack of BGO227 (0.446" 358 gn). Not just 10% less lead, but the they have a finer nose, which might give you a bit more room in the throat and thus leeway for the COAL. And they are much closer to the weight cast by the Lyman mould for .446 / 340 gn, which is almost the only off-the-shelf mould that would be of any use to you.

It could be that the trajectory is so extraordinarily high because you are experiencing the revolver-kick effect - that is to say, the heavier bullets are travelling more slowly down the bore while the back pressure acts for a longer time to push the action back and up, thus producing a larger muzzle rise than smaller bullets with the same muzzle energy. This leads to the interesting result that - at short ranges - heavier bullets can actually impact higher, despite a lower Vo! So get the weight of that lead down!

:wave:
Patrick

Wilco!

Patrick

Patrick, have looked into the Johannsen catalogue. The BG 0227 are a bit too thick. Think the next step is to slug the chamber and a few inches of barrel and also a few inches at the muzzle end and then find someone to make me a mould for the Werder. Have got two bars of Cerrosafe but can´t find anyone who still makes moulds over here. Vizier mentioned Wich ... but his `phone´s dead. Bet there´s plenty of people in USA. Any ideas?
Patrick

Try Hensel. http://www.henselgmbh.de/

They can make you a custom mould - I have 3, and am very satisfied.

:wave:
Patrick

Attachment 28400Again (& again) thank you Patrick ... I´ll get on to them as soon as I´ve done the casts (hope that´s how they work). Just back from the 100 metre range with the Werder. Seems it´s quite a bit better´n the Mauser `71. Got Five (more or less) in the black and then a ten in the lower small target. After that there was so much crud in the breech that I couldn´t get a shell in. Took less than 5 minutes to dismantle the whole gun (barrel, action, trigger guard etc. etc.)

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Originally Posted by villiers

After that there was so much crud in the breech that I couldn´t get a shell in.

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Well, I believe I did warn you, you do need an adequate lube wad under the bullet and do need about 1mm of clearance between the bullet and the throat in a clean breech, because of the crud build-up. For military competition shooting you need to be able to fire up to twenty shots without dismantling the rifle!

:wave:
Patrick

I´ve got a distinct feeling that all that lube I used was only adding to the final crud. Bullets had three grease grooves AND a dab of grease under the bullet. All were heavily greased before insertion. Have now got some nitro BP imitation powder to try out. So, I´ll try that when I get my bullet mould. Next to the 100 metre range´ll be the M71 Mauser. Have set up the Vo test rig in the workshop/garage planned for New Years´ Eve during the fireworks display.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Bullets had three grease grooves AND a dab of grease under the bullet.

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Patrick, I apologize if this sounds like banging on and on and on... but you need more than a dab of lubricant. The grease in the grooves would be enough if it was purely a matter of lubrication for single shots. But the grease wad beneath the bullet is NOT for lubrication in the sense of friction reduction, but is vaporized an mixed wit the powder residue, thus kepping the residue soft enough that most of it is swept out by the NEXt shot. If the quantity is inadequate, the crud will build up and become baked hard, until, as you have discovered, a major cleaning is required. You will know that you have enough when a) a star of molten lube appears around the muzzle b) you can shoot as long as you like without having a fouling problem in the chamber. The barrel then has a dynamic steady-state condition where the soft crud is being swept out as fast as it is being generated. If you only have grease in the grooves, then a hard ring develops behind the bullet, right in the throat. With muzzle-loaders this can make it impossible to seat the bullet right down on the powder every time, with a resulting erratic performance. Hence the invention of the Minie bullet!

I think you will actually need about 0.3-0.4ml of lubricant beneath the bullet to active this condition.

Finally, a caution about the BP-Ersatz powders. Without having used them myself (so I admit that this is hearsay) I read again and again that they are corrosive, and will ruin a barrel pretty fast if you do not clean it thoroughly a.s.a.p. after shooting.

:wave:
Patrick

Says on the box that it´s clean and non-corrosive ... to be used in exactly the same way as PB.
The more grease/lube I put into the case, the less space there is for the powder (?) (But I´ll try out a larger quantity and see how many rounds I can breech). As yet (funnily enough) the barrel on the Werder is `mirror´, minty and looks almost better than new. Can´t shoot it for any length of time as the patience of other people on the range wears thin pretty quickly as the visibility diminishes in clouds of smoke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

Can´t shoot it for any length of time as the patience of other people on the range wears thin pretty quickly as the visibility diminishes in clouds of smoke.

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That's what gives you the edge over those .223 peashooters - you will get used to aiming through the haze, they won't!

:wave:
Patrick

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by villiers

The more grease/lube I put into the case, the less space there is for the powder

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Another good reason to have a slightly lighter bullet!

So I´ve slugged the breech and the muzzle end of the Werder barrel with Cerrasafe (found it very easy to work with), and sent the castings together with a fired case to Hensel after I spoke with him on the `phone. The original bullet was only 22 grammes (339.5 grains) so am waiting to see what he advises. Think he can also rig up a provisional front sight for 100 metres.

Patrick, I think you did just the right thing. Keep up the good work - and keep us posted!

:wave:
Patrick

reloading for 11,15 x 50 R WERDER rifle
I made some test cartdriges for this jaeger 9th bat., rifle out of 45/70 and .43 spanish cases ,use 22 and 25 gn vitha N 110 over a .446 355gn bullet ,will first fireform to see witch dies I ca

sorry was broken off ,would say ,witch dies I can use ,think mauser 71/84 dies will do the job ? my first percussion tests didnt satisfy ,only the .43 spanish cases ignited (thicker rim),I made a extra filler to the omega spring to give more tension ,and it works 45/70 cases ignited ,hammer blow was much stronger ,I think this rifle was kept with the bold closed for more than a 100 years , (its a ex museum one) (werder rifles are always stored with a open bolds !!!!!!! )
will give more explanation after testfiring
greetings from over the pond
jarmann

Think I´ve got the hang of it now. I´ve got a mold for the Werder, but still had problems with chambering the round far enough in so that the trap would close over the cartridge case. Solved the problem by neck sizing the finished product. Yes, there´s not much powder in the smaller, cavalry carbine case, but it does travel fairly accurately up to 100 metres. Suppose it wasn´t meant to do much more from a horse. I put grease behind the bullet and grease the finished round liberally. Don´t have to clean the bore ... even after 20 rounds.

Am still waiting for the Mauser `71 cavalry carbine mold. Suppose now I´ll have to keep both of them. Zimmermann sent me a photostat of a cav. holster for the M `71. Very expensive, but perfect for my motorbike (he also makes an M `71 sling).

PS

My Werder dies are from Lee and the cases are from good old USA (have been waiting for more than a year for Horneber to their left thumb out)

Yes .. the smell is somewhat embarrassing when the next lot come onto the range. I get strange looks at the seat of my pants.

PPS

Think I´ve got the hang of it now. I´ve got a mold for the Werder, but still had problems with chambering the round far enough in so that the trap would close over the cartridge case. Solved the problem by neck sizing the finished product. Yes, there´s not much powder in the smaller, cavalry carbine case, but it does travel fairly accurately up to 100 metres. Suppose it wasn´t meant to do much more from a horse. I put grease behind the bullet and grease the finished round liberally. Don´t have to clean the bore ... even after 20 rounds.

Am still waiting for the Mauser `71 cavalry carbine mold. Suppose now I´ll have to keep both of them. Zimmermann sent me a photostat of a cav. holster for the M `71. Very expensive, but perfect for my motorbike (he also makes an M ?`71 sling).

herr villiers
thought only CH4D made werder dies ? did you order the lee 's direct in the us ?,
hornheber 11,15 x 50R cases I get via reimer johanssen or stifters gunflints
zimmerman has copy werder slings
greetings from little more to the west
jarmann

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jarmann

herr villiers
thought only CH4D made werder dies ? did you order the lee 's direct in the us ?,
hornheber 11,15 x 50R cases I get via reimer johanssen or stifters gunflints
zimmerman has copy werder slings
greetings from little more to the west
jarmann

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... Yes, from Johannsen ... and for the Werder and Mauser M `71 from Triebel.

Think Johannsen is also waiting for Horneber to re-start production.

Buffalo no longer are allowed to export brass cases ... so a round about method is called for.

johannsen has them in stock ,they send them this week
greetings from flanders
jarmann

I´ve now got a bit more used to re-loading with BP. But I still like to keep my loads as precise as with nitro. I place each empty case on the digital scale and press "zero". Then I throw the charge and weigh the full case again. Anything over or under +/- 0.5 grains is rejected. This leaves a recurring and precise space for the grease and the bullet to be seated. So shooting is now a lot more precise. Think I´ll be able to compete with both the M`71 AND the Werder soon. Think I´ll have to keep both.

AND ... have now got the custom bullet moulds for both the M`71 and the Werder (made from my Cerro castings). They make seating much more satisfactory and the finished product even looks almost professional.

When our group was shooting the 71/84 rifles, we were shooting original ammo. Try as we might we never came close to the accuracy of the original paper patch ammo, but we tried to develop a smokeless load.

Tracked down an old friend I hadn't seen in probably 30 years, and in the course of conversation he mentioned that he had gotten off deep into black powder shooting, making regular trips to Raton, New Mexico. He said he never realized the rifle's full potential until he had a paper patch mold made for each rifle, and made his own bullets.

This is some of the original ammo, and in beautiful condition to be almost 125 years old. We shot up something over 1000 rounds, and never had a misfire. We also shot the .43 Spanish, and you could count on at least 50% fail to fire from it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../29axrps-1.jpg

I would have thought that those original boxes look much too valuable to shoot...
I tried paper wrapping the bullets but without much success.

When we were shooting the ammo, it was $10 per 100, and came in both 10 and 20 round boxes. That has been more than a few years ago. The rifles were something like $8.95, and for just a few dollars more you could get a "hand picked" specimen. Most of the hand picked rifles were virtually unissued.

Just think what an investment the ammunition AND the rifle would have been if you´d kept them!

Many of the M71/84 rifles were effectively unused. By the time they reached the depots in quantity, smokeless powder had been introduced by the French in the Mle 1886 Lebel, and everybody was racing to produce a smokeless powder cartridge rifle with a smaller bore. Like, for instance, the 8mm Kropatschek, which was basically a derivation of the M71/84. So the M71/84 was instantly obsolescent.

As to paper-patched bullets: there are two disadvantages that are mentioned among BPCR shooters.
1) There appear to have been cases of paper stripping off in the bore, leading to ringing of the barrel when the next shot was fired through the stuck paper. Sorry, I cannot quote sources at the moment, so you are entitled to treat this as hearsay.
2) The paper has a slight scouring effect on the bore. A friend who is a top competition shooter in his country has a rifle that has noticeably lost performance because of this. I have no interest in wearing out rifles that are active antiques, so I only use grease-groove lead bullets with about 5% tin. As was shown by Henry Pope, you will not cause any measurable wear in a long shooting lifetime by firing propery lubricated soft/medium-hard lead bullets in a BPCR. After the first shot, the GG-bullets are riding on the lubricant, not bare metal. Just don't use recycled wheelweights!

And, of course, the original M71 or M71/84 cartridges in their boxes are far too valuable to be shot!

:wave:
Patrick

Just to complete my education:
Is it worthwhile getting a lube/sizer? The bullets from a sizer seem to look quite a bit better. At present, I lube by hand and am over-liberal with piling on the grease. Using this method, the bore stays clean for a lot longer than with the precisely lubed and sized pre-loaded commercial M71 rounds I initially purchased.

And, at present, I haven´t added tin to the lead. Should I? (Why? What does it do?)

Patrick

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Originally Posted by villiers

Just think what an investment the ammunition AND the rifle would have been if you´d kept them!

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I was in college at the time, and was lucky to get a rifle and a few hundred rounds of ammunition.

As to paper patch slugs wearing out a bore, I called my friend on that one and he said his favorite Shiloh Sharps in .44-77 Sharps had over 2500 PP rounds through it with no loss in accuracy.

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Originally Posted by villiers

Just to complete my education:

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I’ll do my best, but there are several interacting factors, so no easy yes/no answers.

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Originally Posted by villiers

Is it worthwhile getting a lube/sizer? The bullets from a sizer seem to look quite a bit better.

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They do indeed. But I once managed to make the German national championships for muzzle loaders with as-cast bullets. Muzzle-loader bullets MUST bump up (technical term: obturate) enough to fill the bore, so sizing is not a must. What is vital is that the bullets obturate sufficiently to fill the bore.
However, if you want a precise fit to bore diameter from the outset, as may be the case in a BPCR, then sizing is useful to adjust a slightly oversized bullet to suit, and saves buying yet more expensive custom-molds. Yet I managed a second at 300 meters in the BDMP (national) using a 45-70 Sharps with slightly undersized bullets (about .456 rather then .458), relying on the obturation to fill the missing 0.002”. The trick is to have the right bullet hardness – see below. In this case, I used an approx. 3% tin content, simply achieved by adding 5% of eutectic solder to the lead.

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Originally Posted by villiers

At present, I lube by hand and am over-liberal with piling on the grease. Using this method, the bore stays clean for a lot longer than with the precisely lubed and sized pre-loaded commercial M71 rounds I initially purchased.

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A bit too much lube is definitely better than too little. You will read quite often of "bore-riding" bullet forms. But once you have fired the first shot in a clean bore, in a military competition where you are not allowed to clean between shots, then all subsequent shots are, in fact, "crud-riding". I.e. the lead hardly touches the bore, except on the edges of the lands. Sufficient lubricant is vital, otherwise the crud becomes baked harder and harder with each succeeding shot. The grooves fill up and accuracy goes to pot. A well-lubricated BPCR or muzzle-loader will show a light “star” of lube around the muzzle.

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Originally Posted by villiers

And, at present, I haven´t added tin to the lead. Should I? (Why? What does it do?) Patrick

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Basically, yes, you should add tin. How much depends on the load, or rather its effect in terms of breech and muzzle pressure. And the precise relationship of the bullet diameter to the land and groove diameters.

A rough guide – you will have to experiment with your own rifle!
Pure lead, Brinell hardness 5, used for muzzle loaders and Minie rifles (bullet diameter less than land diameter) obturates wonderfully. BUT with a heavy charge this can lead to “blowing the skirts” off Minies with a recessed base as they exit the muzzle, which ruins accuracy OR to bullets being stripped by the rifling, which means you are effectively shooting conicals in a smooth-bore, and results are worse than if you had stuck to patched round balls!
So: add about 2% tin (i.e. 3% of the eutectic solder). This raises the hardness to about BH 8, and appears to allow adequate obturation while avoiding skirt-blowing or stripping.
3% tin, as mentioned above, produces about BH 9, and seems appropriate for BPCR bullets that are larger than the land diameter, but smaller than the groove diameter, as they still allow enough obturation.
5% tin/8% solder (BH about 10) is a hardness that is appropriate if you have groove-diameter bullets in a BPCR. Now that I have the right mold (0.446” as cast), I use it for my M1871, and it ought to work for your M1871 carbine as well. It got me a second in France.
But note that the Tin/BH relationship is strongly non-linear. You have to have about 15% tin to raise the hardness to BH 12. This is very expensive, which is why above 5% tin one usually uses alloys that contain some antimony. The Lyman “Cast Bullet Manual” has advice on this. But note that these alloys are for use with smokeless powders. Harder bullets permit less obturation and require a more accurate match to the bore. For BPCRs the 5% tin mix is about as hard as you need.

But in spite of all this explanation, you will still have to experiment a bit yourself. I suggest you try a 3% and a 5% tin mix, and see which set of bullets performs better. As they say, “your mileage may vary”.

:wave:
Patrick

Have ordered the tin. Both the Werder and the M`71 moulds were custom made by Hensel from Cerrosafe castings so don´t really want to size the bullets. I´ll never be much of a competition winner and neither will the two short carbines. It´s just a matter of achieving the optimum with what I´ve got. Just as the weather´s got slightly better, The Wannsee range is now closed for maintenance. So I´ll get rid of the last twenty soft lead bullets on Monday and then see what the tin/lead compound does.

What's nice about the lube/size is you knock off the high spots and lube the bullet at time. It makes a more precise bullet.


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That´s what I thought. BUT: if the mould is made to fit a Cerrosafe casting of the barrel, wouldn´t the sizer die then make the bullet LESS precise?

Not with the right size die. The sizer is going to flatten or smooth out the seam on the bullet from the mould on make the baring surfaces on the bullet smoother.


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Originally Posted by villiers

Both the Werder and the M`71 moulds were custom made by Hensel from Cerrosafe castings so don´t really want to size the bullets.

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I also use Hensel molds. If you gave Hensel the slugged bore diameter of the rifle in which the bullets are to used, before he cut the mold, the bullets will not need sizing. With added tin, the bullets will probably come out a gnat's whisker larger, as a tin-lead mix fills thé mold better.

It´s off the the Wannsee range next week to try the new `M `71 bullets out ... starting out at only 50 metres. If all´s ok ... up to 100 .... and then (just for laughs) 3oo. Can then start casting with dash of tin.

If you have a micrometer that will measure to less than 0.001", or a metric mike that measures to 1/100 mm, try measuring the diameters of the bullets in the various mixes - pure lead, 3% etc. The diameter should increase very slightly as the tin content increases. This will also have a 2nd order effect on the bullet/bore compatibility. Hensel may have calibrated the mold for a pure lead or a specific tin/lead ration, depending on what you asked for. He certainly did for the mold for my Gibbs muzzle-loader, and wrote that the bullet should be used as cast, and not sized down at all.

Yes, remember he did advise not to size.

Greetings gentlemen. When pouring your powder into the case do you use a drop tube of say, 60cm or more? While reading through these posts I did not notice a specific reference to one being used.

Well I don't. I tried it once, as a beginner, and found it was an awful bother to set the thing up. Now I am older, and if not wiser, at least lazier, with the leading motto being KISS. I use a small dispensing "shovel" (about 10cc capacity) which I load and pour into a cartridge case that serves as a measure. The whole shovelful is poured into the case, so that it spills over, and then I scrape the excess off the mouth of the case.

That may sound simple, but it produces BP loads with a tolerance of +/- 0.2gn in weight and about 0.0 in volume. Since the case is a nitro case with a mouth in the range 6.5-8mm (I have a range of these things), the next step is to place the mouth of the BP case over the neck of the "measure" case, upend the combination, tap on table 3 times to make sure that nothing sticks, and the BP falls into the BP case.

Quick, easy, repeatable... what more do you want. I can fill about 4 cases in the time it took me to write this far. In fact, this evening I prepared loads for 4 rifles that I want to test fire tomorrow. There's a BP competition coming up, and I have to decide which rifles I am going to use.
The loading went in no time at all. What cost me half the evening was looking for the Dr Goodwin diopter for the Sharps. If you know what one of these costs, then you will understand why I was worried. I found it in the end - in a box marked "sights". Amazing how you can outsmart yourself!

It's not simply that I'm untidy - I prefer to think of it as the "geological" method of arranging things - the stuff you used most recently is at the top. Being under firm orders not to let the chaos spread outside the workshop, the arrangement inside the workshop makes a WWII submarine look like wide open spaces. But it's all in there - somewhere!

Now I am whacked. But there are 4 rifles ready to go tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

It's not simply that I'm untidy - I prefer to think of it as the "geological" method of arranging things - the stuff you used most recently is at the top. Being under firm orders not to let the chaos spread outside the workshop, the arrangement inside the workshop makes a WWII submarine look like wide open spaces. But it's all in there - somewhere!

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Hmmm, I seem to have a bit of that syndrome as well...

Interesting. I started out by using a "shovel and pour method" similar to what you describe but my accuracy measurably improved when I switched to a drop tube. My drop tube is permanently affixed to one of my reloading benches so there is no bother in setting one up. Very simple.

Well, I have a new, untried can of powder to screen. I wish you good day.

The drop tube that came with my BP dispenser is much too long, so that the dispenser´d either be at ceiling height or the end of the tube below floor level.
I´ve found that there definitely is an advantage in accuracy to be gained in measuring precise BP weights per case. So now I place an empty case on the digital scales and press "zero". I then fill the case at the desired setting on the dispenser and check the measurement on the scales. I tap the full case to let the powder settle and seat the bullet. Thus I now use precise loads. The only component that is NOT precise is the blob of grease under the bullet.

I´ve now found that (unexpectedly) the short Werder cav. carbine is very accurate ... unlike the Mauser, even though the Mauser is in practically new condition. Cleaning is a lot easier than I thought it would be. The whole of the Werder action is removed to clean the barrel.

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Originally Posted by villiers

I´ve now found that (unexpectedly) the short Werder cav. carbine is very accurate ...

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Patrick, could you quantify that, or post a target?
I do make the grease blob quite precise, because the amount of grease is going to affect the powder compression in the case. I admit, this may be a 2nd-order effect, but as you have to dispense the stuff with something, I use a disposable plastic syringe, allowing me to insert a fairly precise blob without any particular effort - apart from getting the syringe loaded with the grease to start off with!

Targets of the Mauser and the Werder? I haven´t taken them beyond 100 metres yet.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

, I use a disposable plastic syringe, allowing me to insert a fairly precise blob without any particular effort - apart from getting the syringe loaded with the grease to start off with!

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This grease looks to be much softer then my lube. I use a mixture of beeswax and lambs tallow but I am always ready to experiment.

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Originally Posted by ogre

a mixture of beeswax and lambs tallow

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Hmmm, probably too stiff for the syringe method. That sounds more like a mix to be warmed up to make it runny, and then dunk the bullets.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

That sounds more like a mix to be warmed up to make it runny, and then dunk the bullets.

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Well...... that is certainly one method to use it.

Am looking at a new method of inserting a grease patch under the bullet by melting a thin sheet of grease and stamping out round patches. This would replicate the grease patch and guarantee uniformity.

Hi all,

(I really appreciate this thread -learnt a lot already.)

Did anyone already gave it a try to load a Werder cartridge with some slow-burning smokeless powder instead of BP (and filling the surplus with semolina, grease or something other)?

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your loading data for a 11.5x35R cartridge (as being used in the Werder pistol).

Many thanks!

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Originally Posted by villiers

Am looking at a new method of inserting a grease patch under the bullet by melting a thin sheet of grease and stamping out round patches.

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This is known as a grease cookie, and is common practice among muzzleloaders. Go to the long range muzzle loaders' forum, at

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/lrml/

and look for "grease cookie".

For BPCRs you can make it very easy indeed - by using the case itself as the cookie cutter!

Prepare the shallow tray with the lube of your choice filled in to the right depth. Take the cartridge case, primed, with powder load and a wad (or two) over the powder. Upend the case, place it square on the lube layer, and use the case neck as the cookie cutter, i.e. press in, twiddle round, withdraw. You now have a case with a neck plugged with lube. Load the projectile as normal. Finished. But it can be simpler.

You may need to experiment a bit with the lube mix - if it is too soft it will not come cleanly off the tray. But the fats and greases used for BP will often also corrode the case if left for weeks (maybe days?). And there may be some seepage of light constituents of the lubricant into and through the wads. So I only grease and load on the day before a competition, if possible, and then keep the loaded cartridges nose down in the storage box.

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Originally Posted by bitbuerster

Did anyone already gave it a try to load a Werder cartridge with some slow-burning smokeless powder instead of BP (and filling the surplus with semolina, grease or something other)?

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Forget it.

You will probably get some affirmative answers to this, but as you are living in Switzerland, I would advise against it.

Firstly, using a smokeless powder in a gun that was made for BP only invalidates the proof and makes you liable for the consequences if anything goes wrong.

Secondly, all European shooting organizations with which I am familiar, in line with both the laws of their countries and that elusive thing known as "the spirit of the original", not only forbid the use of anything other than proper BP for muzzle-loaders and blackpowder guns, they typically also forbid the use of duplex loads. Any shooting federation that is allied to the MLAIC (Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee) will follow these rules. Some, but not all, may permit the use of BP-"Ersatz" powders such as Goex in certain circumstances.

So why break the law in an important matter of safety, hazarding both your firearm and yourself, to work up a load that you cannot use in any competition, because the use of smokeless powder will get you instantly disqualified and thrown off the range?

A Werder pistol is a much too valuable piece of equipment to experiment with. Swiss BP is a high quality product and I´d stick with it. I can shoot about 15 rounds before I have to pull through. The secret is to liberally lube the cartridge. The M69 Kurz (depending on the form of the bullet) will only chamber in my cavalry carbine if the length is not over extended (otherwise the action will not close over the domed base of the cartridge). With a round bullet head, the COA length on mine should not be more than 45mm. This allows for 30 grains of BP, a thin cardboard shim, and a small grease pellet. And is quite accurate at 300 metres (just as good as my LE No. 5). I did exchange the front sight blade (keeping the original safe) as it was shooting much too high.

I tried out some of the BP alternative powders and found that even lighter charges were creating a much higher Vo than standard BP loads. The smoke and the stink are part of the joy of it.

Sorry to jump inot your conversation but i could see that all of you were from Germany .I was wondering if any of you had ever seen one of these items .I believe it was a paper weight or something given out during WW2 . Arnie Hope the pictures work


http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...psaf544d1f.png
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...psda9a3e94.png
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps0fd45ab3.png

arnie, it certainly looks interesting (I´m a pilot and my speciality is in vintage, tail wheel aircraft) ... but the pics come out much too small on my computer and I can´t make out the letters.

Apart from "Rheinmetall", I can't read anything either.

Correct that, I think it's "Rheinmetall-Borsig"

Lets see if this picture comes out larger http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps176ebca4.png

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------

For some reason photo bucket doesnt copy pictures big enough for detail or am i down loading them wrong?

Rheinmetall-Borsig
Aktiengesellschaft Werk Düsseldorf

i.e.
Rheinmetall-Borsig Joint-Stock Company
Düsseldorf Works

This name was adopted in 1936, after Rheinmetall had taken over the locomotive builder Borsig in 1933.
Rheinmetall always was - and still is - a substantial arms manufacturer.

A good pic of the other arm of the propeller might enable me to identify the markings, and thus provide a clue to the why and wherefore of this item.

I think this is it:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...ture-propeller

Seller thought it was intended as a souvenir paper-knife. Could well be.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...ture-propeller Yes that is it . Wonder how rare these are ? I guess if there not known to exist then there isnt a market for them .