My 1941 Lithgow and some questions.

I have a 1941 Lithgow No 1 Mk III* that was given an FTR in, I believe, 1955. The barrel is dated June 1955 and MA 55 is lightly stamped on the left side of the butt socket. The right side shows the usual Lithgow, MA 1941 stamping. I've owned the rifle since 1979. It appears a previous owner may have refinished or stained the stock.

Although a joy to behold and possessing a new barrel, it is a poor shooter. It impacts low and as it gets hot, subsequent shots drop right out of the scoring rings in a vertical line on an SR 1 target at 100 yards. Has anyone experienced anything like this? Could someone point me in the right direction as to what might be wrong?

Thinking it might be a possible bedding problem, I have been motivated to take off the stock but can't do so because the little horizontal screw in the nosecap will not budge. It is the only screw on the rifle which is dinged up and if I apply to much pressure I'm afraid the slot will be mangled. I also notice the screw head seems to be on wrong side since most other rifles seem to have the screw head on the opposite side. I took a picture of this area.

My other question concerns the A F stamp on the receiver ring. Does anyone know what this means. I have not been able to find it in my copy of The Lee Enfield story by Skennerton.

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Before you do ANYTHING else, clean the bore, dry it and test fire it for accuracy (first three rounds into the bank first.......) using the ammo that it was made to shoot and likes best. British (or other Commonwealth) .303" Mk7 ball. That's the only way to test it for accuracy and zero

I've done that as late as last week. I have some South African A80 7.7 x 56R ammo plus my own 174 and 180 grain Sierra handloads. It always follows the same pattern and has since I've owned it. I also have two No 4's and they group pretty well at 100 yards with the same ammo.

1. Make sure the front trigger guard screw is firm (not gorilla'd...);

2. Take the inner band screw out and make sure there is a small spring in there;

3. Tighten the inner band screw up until you feel it just bite on the spring, and then fire a series of test groups - tightening the inner band screw by 1/4 turn in between each group.

4. If the inner band screw tension makes no difference, then you'll need to take the forend off to have a look inside. The small horizontal screw in the nosecap is facing the correct way - its just been staked in place. You will have to persuade it to come out...

Try some Radway Green or Woolwich (RG or RL). With the best will in the world, South African 7.7 ain't calibrated to UK Military spec.

You don't have to take the nosecap off to remove the forend.

The A^F stamp has been discussed a number of times and the general opinion is that it stands for Air Force. The other possibility is Australian Forces. I've also heard from a number of very seasoned collectors that some rifles that went through the Australian Air Force were indeed varnished. I don't know if this is true but I've owned a couple and seen many more that have a wood finish identical to yours.

Thunderbox, The trigger guard screw is firm. I managed to get the middle band screw out and there was a spring inside. When I put it back in I can't feel it bite. It only seems to be loose or tight. I backed it out a turn and will try again at the range tightening it up as I shoot. That nosecap screw isn't coming out. Its not in good shape and I hold a degree in screw head mangling!! Thanks for the advise.

Peter, I have no sources of the ammo you mention. Only my hand loads. I use 43 Grains of RE 15 and either the 174 or 180 Sierra bullets. Do you think ammo is the problem?

Demo, can you detail the method of removing the forestock without removing the nosecap?

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

Demo, just read the rest of your post. Thanks for the info re the A F stamp and the stock finish. It is really a good looking rifle.

I can't add to anything the expert armourers, but I have a 1941 Lithgow, serial no. 60299, so I feel a kindred spirit. Mine was also refurbished in 1955, new barrel with a brass shim between action and barrel.

Is your rifle consistently grouping?

Thanks for your reply Andrew. Our serial numbers are pretty close together. Interesting that the rifles end up thousands of miles apart (I'm in eastern Pennsylvania, USA) and the owners can communicate with each other electronically.

Anyway, this rifle doesn't group well for me. As I stated it starts shooting low (at first I thought it was a simple matter of the front sight being to high) but then drops subsequent shots even lower until you wind up with a verticle line of holes. The windage seems to be OK, though. Its interesting that you mention your rifle has a brass shim between action and barrel. It strikes me that that shim would be visible in front of the receiver ring, right? My rifle doesn't seem to have a shim.

Arnie... are you using the sling when shooting?

It is not uncommon for any rifle to wander a bit in elevation as the barrel warms up. As Peter suggested, put at least three into the backstop before you even aim at the paper. In fact try five. Then shoot a group, do what you must to get it on paper, take your aim at the top edge of the target, careful to keep the same horizontal point of aim.

Then use a sandbag rest under the front swivel, and not your sling... see where it shoots in comparison.

I have a '42 Lithgow 55FTR that was in the grease when I got it. It shoots around MOA all day from cold to hot. If I use a "hasty" hold with the sling it strings vertically four or five inches in a group, well low of the previous POI.

Son, Thanks for your rely.

I don't use the sling. Lately I've been shooting off of three sandbags. I'm going to take your and Peter's advise about warming it up first with 5 shots and I'm then going to hold consistently on the same spot no matter what. I've got some rounds made up using RE 15 and the Sierra 180 SP which has a flat base and I'm going to make up some more using lighter loads of IMR 4895, 38 and 39 grains in new Prvi brass, same bullet. I'm also going to take Thunderbox's advise about adjusting the lower band screw tension to see if this makes any difference. What about the screw under the nosecap? That one seems to be spring loaded too.

Was a rifle test fired as part of an FTR?

I'm sure there is some simple answer to this problem. As you point out about your rifle, these guns have a reputation for quality and accuracy. I noticed an old posting from Smellie who also indicated he had a Lithgow that shot groups which were 1 inch horizontal wide and 14 inches high vertically! He took the gun apart and found the stock was cracked. He repaired the crack and bedded the rifle and it then shot under 1 inch. Unfortunately I'm not capable of that sort of thing!

Arnie,

If you live in eastern PA, and are close to Doylestown (Bucks county), there is a chap at Bucks Country Fish and Game club right outside of Doylestown who is fairly good at figuring out bedding problems with both the No 4 and No 1 rifles. He has a bunch of match rifles in both calibers, a barn full of parts and has corrected the bedding issues on more than a few of these rifles for folks there. He is also a member of the Forks of the Delaware and can be found at most of their shows wandering around looking for Enfield bits.

If you want his help, show up to one of there CMP matches @ Bucks (there is one this Saturday @ 9) and go see the rangemaster. He will likely be the only shooter on the line with some sort of match tuned No 4 If you want, send me a PM and I will send you his email. Best thing is to catch him at the shoots, he is much more likely to help out a shooter who is serious then he is to help out someone who just want free help. If you catch him at the match he sometimes has his tool box with him and can correct most minor problems on the line after the match, as least if it is a simple mater of getting the fits correct according to MOD procedures.

I'd take a guess that it's binding on the nosecap hole and that filing the hole larger at this point will fix it.

Frederick, PM sent.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 PM ----------

Hi, Mk VII,

You could be right because, as you can see from the picture, that nosecap is really tight at the muzzle. There is no extra space at all. At the moment I can't get the nosecap off because I'm afraid of destroying that horizontal screw you see in the picture. What type of file would I use and how much metal should be taken off?

What type of file would I use and how much metal should be taken off?[/QUOTE]

None, once you get the firearm disassembled, check this forums archives for correct bedding procedures.
Once setup properly there will be no need to damage any component.

Arnie, the nosecap is the same as 6 million others, as is the barrel. Can you take the top handguard off and see if the barrel is sitting down on the foreend chanell or held up by the barrel centreing stud and spring inside the nosecap. To do this, remove the outer band that clamps the handguard onto the foreend. Then gently lift the handguard clear at the back and wiggle it a little as you pull it back. Take care not to grip the two thin bits that go either side of the rear sight, they are fragile. The front metal cap should pull out from under the nosecap.

Next, looking at the muzzle, push down hard on the barrel just behind the front sight and see if you can get it to come away from the top of the nosecap hole. If it can be moved down, then a possible fix for your bedding would be to put a little gasket paper in the handguardl about an inch long from the very front of the handguard. Be carefull to only use thick enough layers to push the barrel away from the nosecap when the handguard is fitted.

Warm up as before and try a group...

How bad are we talking? Does it shoot like 5 inch groups or like 15 inch? There are so many things that could cause terrible accuracy in a No1 and it's pretty tough to diagnose when you havn't got it out of the wood. Looks to me like that nose cap screw you're talking about is staked in place, so it's probably an original factory or armourer setup. I'd go with Frederick303 and send it off to someone who's done some before rather than going down the "file" path. My bet is it's something major and simple.

Thank everyone for your replies. Well I just got back from the range. Shot a pile of handloads off of three sandbags at 100 yards. Actually, despite my previous moaning and groaning it really didn't do badly. I shot 5 shot groups trying to hold at 6 o'clock on the 6 1/2 inch diameter black of an SR-1 target. Anyway the elevation was fine, the groups even with the black. The rifle shot distinctly to the right, the groups centering about 4 to 5 inches right of center. The two best groups were about 5 to 6 inches measuring the distance between the farthest holes. I tried to post pictures.

Anyway, I'm certainly not going to take a file to anything. Its also pretty clear I don't have the knowledge or expertise to accurize this rifle myself. I'll either try to contact the fellow mentioned in Frederick303's post or just leave it alone.

Son, I will remove the handguards tomorrow as you suggest and see if I can move the barrel. Will let you know.

Thanks again everyone.

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If you pulled that one at 2 oclock on the second group, that rifle is fine. Drift the foresight over a tad and they're all 9's and 10's.

Those were the two best groups but several others were close and all were distinctly right like that. Is there a trick to drifting the front sight?

The easiest way to move the front sight is to remove the nosecap, and then drift the sight with a soft punch and light hammer. So you are going to have to sort that stuck screw sooner or later.

I thought the holes in the nosecap were for servicing the front sight without having to remove the nosecap? Also it looks like the front sight might be staked in place. There is a hole or dimple in the front sight base below the sight itself. I think you can see that in the head on picture I took of the nosecap. Am I right?

Oh, ...well, yeah, them thar holes...Post in haste, look stupid long time!:madsmile:

As for the stake mark, it's fairly small and not real close, so it ought to be reasonably easy to break the sight loose. Years of setting probably have more effect. Just restake when the zero is restored if there's any losseness.

If you want to be a bit more precise in expend possibly a few less rounds, there's sight pushers that work, but again ,the nosecap is in the way. Since you've the windows, the rap and tap method still seems easiest.

Thanks.