think the values will go up ?

just got an email from rock island auction co. they are going to have a show on the discovery channel nov 30th called ready aim sell. in that show they will auction off carbines ,one being the prototype t-3 with all documentaion. with these types of shows coming up and getting air time,do you think it will bring up the values of carbines ,or hurt the market because everyone and their mother think they have a collector piece ?
what is your thoughts?

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the t-3 is estimated to sell for $25,000-$50,000

I personally believe the carbines are priced too high now. There were Millions of carbines made and there isn't a logical reason why they are selling for 400-800 dollars. I'm just glad I bought my carbine years ago for under 125 dollars.

Hope the show is better than RIA's auction description. It says "less than 1000 total ever produced" when even the most casual observer knows 1,919 T3s were accepted in '45 - and that doesn't count the 700+ T3 Carbines made in Inland's first batch in 1944. Further, the description fails to grasp that there was also an M1 model - and it is extremely likely that that is the type used on Okinawa. So, nice piece of technology history, but not much military history there.

6 million made yes, do the math on how many may be left-"IF" there are 320,000,000 americans and 80,000,000 gun owners only one in 13 or 14 can own a carbine if all survived-maybe 50% of americans today had a ancestor who served in WW2 or Korea-thankfully most people don't want to own one! After all it is only detachable magazine fed semi auto rifle made for the US Army that can be converted to a MG with addition of easily obtainable parts at gunshow or on internet that us common citizens can ever own with out a $200 tax. While this act would be a clear violation of law and get a monster fine and time in the pen it creates a wow factor of what it can be. All the parts were made by US contractors for our government. This was not done on any other weapon. It is only legally ownable weapon made for war that is shootable in a comfortable form in my opinion by 10 yr olds or older whether male or female. It is also the last weapon made for war that we would want to comfortably shoot when we are in our 90's. Again I am speaking my opinions and they are free! Now the worst part of carbine collecting is fact that most collectors can not be satisfied owning just one of them. The neat factor is 10+ brands of them that there are. This makes the carbine collector friendly like a 1911a1--you need 5 makers of them to have a complete ww2 collection of one of each maker, look what you need when you get to the carbine world. Is like the luger world. Then you have the major changes made that drastically changed the looks from early to late. Collector heaven!! There will not be many cheap ones left to buy ever. When a new copy is $600 why would any real one be worth less if it shoots and hits??? I confess, I am a carbinaholic with severe case of carbinitis that requires monthly treatments. When treatment is missed severe deprevation sets in. LOL--christmas is coming!!!! Happy T-day!!!

Someone on here told me years ago that gun collectors are nuts, but carbine collectors are FN nuts lol, it is us who drive up the prices because we pay them

I too, do not know why carbines are so high. I was helping my brother in law shop around for one, and the prices for what were CMP rack grades are STUPID! Found a few online for $500-600, but for the most part you would think the had early features and type one bands. It is not like there is a shortage. GUn shops have them, Big 5, and dozens and dozens of them on Gun broker and guns America.

Rebuilt carbines function in a free market like a commodity. Plentiful supply balances demand at the market clearing price. Has nothing to do with one potential buyer's opinion. Just another example of Adam Smith's invisible hand. Not that complicated.

i find it absolutley amazing that some gun dealers, who should know their business, actually ask upwards of $1200 for a commercial copy .......used ,yes used, ive seen it lol

Just normal inflation is going to raise the price 3%-5% a year. Then you add all the other stuff, maker, condition, features, ect.

Seems that they, CMP's, have almost doubled in value about every 8 years since the 60's.

Didn't buy at the $20 price, I was in high school. 1972 I was just out of the Navy and too poor looking for work. But I did start around 1978 and paid $65 for my first carbine. Sold at shows from 1987 to 2002 and those were the prices in my area.

1964......$20
1972......$40
1980......$80
1988......$160
1996......$320
2004......$640
2012......$1280 ???

Imports in good condition were not far behind those numbers. (other then heavy stamped Blue Sky)

Gold used to be $36 an oz too.

Jim

bought my first carbine at a Houston gun show around 1973 for $125

The reason that they are popular is that once you have one in your hands and shoot it, you want one. The Army has never made a more handy light and powerful weapon.

The reason that they are $800-1200 is because part swappers are addicted to carbines and can't pass up anything that they perceive as rare. They may be dead wrong or taken to the cleaners by humpers, but they will still whip out that card and buy it. Part swappers are their own worst enemies, and when it reaches the point , which it has, that they find a pig in a poke and suspect it, but still say " I like it anyway", they deserve what they get. Because that pig in a poke will belong to some other poor sucker before too long, at $1200.

Original, non-rebuilt Type 1 carbines will keep going up in prices, maybe nice orig. Type2 also; the hundreds of thousands of rebuilt, parts guns and etc. will not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brick26

the hundreds of thousands of rebuilt, parts guns and etc. will not.

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I respectfully disagree. Depot rebuilds were rebuilt for a reason and will continue to appreciate because they are a piece of American history. In case you haven't noticed, parts are going through the roof as scarce parts dry up, hence parts guns will continue to appreciate and in some cases, faster than complete rifles. Just my $.02 worth. Regards, Rick.

Part swappers can't help themselves. The fact that the carbine was updated to improve utility and durability escapes them. It is just a Rockola trigger housing surrounded by junk they don't need. That is why humpers are so successful, they even go to extraordinary steps like actually welding up evidence and refinishing them. They know that the swappers will still bite. When they discover that they've been duped, they don't care, the thrill of the chase is what they are after, not the carbine. A time will come when even a perfectly original carbine will not be worth more because the supply of these scarce guns has been so debased by swappers and restorers that the collecting public doesn't believe that ANYTHING is real. It is like that now as a portion of collectors who don't have an original piece or are not informed enough to really look, simply dismiss than any "Original" carbines exist. This justifies ruining as many guns as they want to make more "restorations" with humped up junk. It is a vicious circle and it will end badly for everyone who collects.

A friend just got through restoring a 1957 Chevrolet convertible that he had know about for years, but couldn't buy. It finally came up for sale and my friend bought it. The original engine had been a 270 HP dual quad 283 with column mounted three speed manual. At some time in the past the original engine had been removed and a 350 with 350 Turbo Hydramatic transmission installed. My friend worked for well over a year on the car, and few parts were the original parts, but he restored it to it's original configuration. The 350 engine was much easier to live with than the original temperamental dual quad, but it was back like it was originally built. Although the restoration is probably a better quality than the original build, it won't fool any car collector into thinking it is original. The 350 engine and auto transmission made one owner happy, but only a restoration made the other happy. It just depends on what you like.

As far as prices, they are pulled up from the top rather than pushed up from the bottom. As the original pieces go up in value the rebuilds and restorations will also go up in value, just not as much dollar-wise.

Amen to that Mr. Peppers. It's all about what makes you Happy!

CMP sold over 56,000 carbines, the overwhelming majority of which were mixmasters, over, what, a three year period? Did prices go down with this flood? Didn't seem to. That can only happen in a market where demand exceeds supply. And this happened in a terrible economy. The part of the market that was unwilling or unable to qualify to buy from CMP (plus those who were simply unaware CMP existed) were willing to pay even higher prices at gunshows and on auction sites.

Before parts swapping got a bad name from collectors, it was done out in the open. Look through the ads in the first 10-15 years of Carbine Club newsletters. Virtually every issue has an ad for a restored carbine, oftentimes several. Maybe a change in degree, but not in kind.

I think as long as folks are still allowed to own carbines and
Interest does not decrease prices will increase on all guns and ammo.
Supply and demand, right now demand is high. What I do notice is that there is not as many people with the disposable income for firearms.

Restoring a carbine is just a matter of collecting all the right parts. The problem with the exercise is that 99% of the people wouldn't know the right parts if they walked up and stomped on their foot. What a small group of informed people did 25 years ago has no relation to the insane situation today. But it's entertainment.

I agree completely, Dave I believe only a very small percentage of the people swapping parts lately have done the deep research needed to know exactly which parts would be "Correct" for a given serial number range/date of manufactue. Not even taking into account all the fake parts being installed, there are many parts that were correct from the factory that have now been removed.

It was unbelievable to me when the CMP carbines hit the market that so many first time carbine owners stripped down their first ever M1 carbine when they received it and started looking for parts to replace. They'd hit the forums asking if 'such and such' was 'correct' and take advice from others who didn't have any books either. Many didn't even take their new carbine out to shoot it as it was intended.

I think some of the situation was caused by the phenomenon of our information age. I'm not putting down people because of their interest in carbines - I think we all love carbines or we wouldn't be here talking about them. I just think many people who never owned a carbine before, hit the internet forums (Many even before they got a carbine) and started reading about restoring and got the mistaken impression idea that restoring is all that carbines are about. Some carbines were only taken out of original condition by a couple of parts and educated 'restoring' them back to original can make some sense. Some people have done pro-level restorations and spent more than the final value, but undiscriminating parts swapping has wrecked way too carbines. By far all of the CMP carbines were about as far away from restorable as they could be.

I know I'm a minority, and we all have our opinions, but I appreciate, and don't look down on carbines that went through arsenal hands at all. If they're still in arsenal condition, they're usually in good working condition and they have kept their original Military history. I'm the same way with all military items I collect though - A military restitching repair to web gear, or a faded name stenciled on the back of a 1923 cartridge belt is completely fine with me.

I feel there's a big difference from a carbine in good arsenal condition than one that's been 'restored' in most cases. There's nothing that's worse than seeing a carbine that's obviously been through rebuild (as most have been) and seeing early T-1 sight, band, safety on it. Regardless if the parts are real (most aren't) the carbines seem to have lost their military history and high level of professional military care and maintenance. It's just my opinion, which is just that (opinion) but I feel many carbines have treated too much as toys by some people who didn't have the passion, respect, or interest to study about them and learn their unbelievably rich history.

From what I see now, many new owners did their thing swapping parts, sanding FAT stamps, installing inferior quality Chinese parts of every kind, etc, etc mostly to make them "Look Cool" Many people have already gotten bored with playing and lots of the CMP carbines are already out floating around on the market substantially out of military condition now. These were most likely the last carbines of any quantity to be sold in original military condition. Just a little sad to me.

I started researching about 3-4 years ago maybe 5 because I had a Winchester that I'd owned for decades and wondered about it. After working with a very knowledgeable person, it turns out that it is in original configuration including a AU recoil plate. Turns out to be a known mirror image Winchester in the CC data base a few numbers away. If this carbine had fallen into the hands of the part swappers, they would have tossed the Underwood part, removed the type 3 sight and type 4 Win trigger housing, because some duck told them they didn't belong. Goodbye original carbine. The very part that they discard is what makes the case. I think of these obsessed people like children; they like it, they own it therefore it is OK. While they destroy history, ruin perfect carbines and make fools of themselves when they put them up for evaluation. It would be like all of a sudden nobody trusts anything about carbines anymore. I have watched this same crap with cartouches on Garands, it became laughable to watch fools argue over something they knew nothing about. Sad part is like you say, when these dopes get tired of this game, their legacy gets sold to other poor suckers. When the benchmark is original carbines, building ersatz originals defeats the purpose.

Well said Harlan,
I bought my CMP rifle just because I wanted one of the little rifles that the USAF handed to me in 1961 and said "shoot this".
I don't even remember the makers of the ones I was issued. I just remember that I loved each and every one for the short time it was in my possession.
The part changers just kinda turned me off. I didn't want one that had been resurrected to look like one that had been the Pacific or the ETO. I wasn't even walking in those days. Had i been bequeathed one that was there, It would be one of my prized possessions.
The parts changers are just ruining issue rifles.......

I thought they were all the same, a carbine, then someone clued me in and hidden under the sight is Winchester. I started to get interested when I found these sites.